NC Table Rock Lightening ledge erosion.

Hey Steven, do you have any pics of Lightning Ledge? 

csproul wrote: Here are the CCC bolting policies.
https://carolinaclimbers.org/about-ccc/boltingpolicy.html 
These only apply to CCC supplied bolts, and all sound perfectly reasonable to me. I also don’t see anything wrong with rules governing areas where the CCC has purchased/leased, e.g. Laurel Knob and Ashboro. Without the CCC there wouldn’t be any legal climbing at such areas. 
Can you provide a specific example of what the CCC has done to draw such a reaction from you?

Where to start

Keep those ccc ruled bolts at thier craigs i will gladly purchase my own
Slakliners not permitted to set at laurel, their land thier rules true, but slacking is a subset of climbing and can be a respectable use of this natural wonder its not like the walls arent already covered in bolts. Disappointing at best and handled poorly.

Ccc is regularly behind chopping of bolts they disagree with, have seen this first hand at locations they do NOT own numerous times.  If its their land then they can do what they like, i agree.  But it is usually shady and not publicly known.
They regularly have info removed from MP it is extremely frustrating.  Occationally it is with merrit but often not, lets sell some more guide books with out of scale hand drawn topos!!! BooooReally displeased to buy guide books and then not be able to locate the craig why is everything a secret i just paid you for the info? Access issues blah blah we havent spent 5k on a new parking lot yet blahhhh this is BS most nc climbing areas have limited parking, deal with it.

All of these places had climbing before the ccc and all of these places will have climbing after they didnt invent it.
I am regularly displeased with the way that high up members in this organization conduct themselves and speak to others. I have spoken with some females that have been treated poorly by some of these people. It does often feel to me there is a lot of macho attitudes going on.
Much of how this organization operates is not public and that need to change its not for the best.

. wrote:

Where to start

Keep those ccc ruled bolts at thier craigs i will gladly purchase my own
Slakliners not permitted to set at laurel, their land thier rules true, but slacking is a subset of climbing and can be a respectable use of this natural wonder its not like the walls arent already covered in bolts. Disappointing at best and handled poorly.

Ccc is regularly behind chopping of bolts they disagree with, have seen this first hand at locations they do NOT own numerous times.  If its their land then they can do what they like, i agree.  But it is usually shady and not publicly known.
They regularly have info removed from MP it is extremely frustrating.  Occationally it is with merrit but often not, lets sell some more guide books with out of scale hand drawn topos!!! BooooReally displeased to buy guide books and then not be able to locate the craig why is everything a secret i just paid you for the info? Access issues blah blah we havent spent 5k on a new parking lot yet blahhhh this is BS most nc climbing areas have limited parking, deal with it.

All of these places had climbing before the ccc and all of these places will have climbing after they didnt invent it.
I am regularly displeased with the way that high up members in this organization conduct themselves and speak to others. I have spoken with some females that have been treated poorly by some of these people. It does often feel to me there is a lot of macho attitudes going on.
Much of how this organization operates is not public and that need to change its not for the best.

Thought your first post was more salient.  Really slaklining? I set up my slackline in the backyard between the pecan trees like a good southerner.  

Chopping bolts.  Sounds good.

Removing info from MP.  Fantastic idea.  

Hand drawn topos.  Adventure!

Parking lots.  BOO! go home Yankie or roll in on your 4x4.

Females treated poorly?  Disgusting, call those dicks out.  

Non-Governmental organization.  Sounds productive.  

The. wrote:

Where to start

Keep those ccc ruled bolts at thier craigs i will gladly purchase my own
Slakliners not permitted to set at laurel, their land thier rules true, but slacking is a subset of climbing and can be a respectable use of this natural wonder its not like the walls arent already covered in bolts. Disappointing at best and handled poorly.

Ccc is regularly behind chopping of bolts they disagree with, have seen this first hand at locations they do NOT own numerous times.  If its their land then they can do what they like, i agree.  But it is usually shady and not publicly known.
They regularly have info removed from MP it is extremely frustrating.  Occationally it is with merrit but often not, lets sell some more guide books with out of scale hand drawn topos!!! BooooReally displeased to buy guide books and then not be able to locate the craig why is everything a secret i just paid you for the info? Access issues blah blah we havent spent 5k on a new parking lot yet blahhhh this is BS most nc climbing areas have limited parking, deal with it.

All of these places had climbing before the ccc and all of these places will have climbing after they didnt invent it.
I am regularly displeased with the way that high up members in this organization conduct themselves and speak to others. I have spoken with some females that have been treated poorly by some of these people. It does often feel to me there is a lot of macho attitudes going on.
Much of how this organization operates is not public and that need to change its not for the best.

They own LK, so they get to set the rules, and it’s the Carolina Climbers ...not the Carolina Slackliners, I don’t agree that it’s a “subset” of climbing. You wouldn’t be able to legally go there at all if not for the CCC. Yes there was climbing at LK before the CCC, but not legally (for most anyway). How many other places have the CCC secured legal climbing access where was none before?

Let’s hear a specific example of the CCC (not some random individual who happens to be a member) chopping a bolt on land they don’t own/lease, and have not supplied the bolt. 
As far as I know, they suppress MP areas where it has been specifically requested by the owner or land manager. Can you provide an example where this is it true?

So far, you talk a lot without any specifics or any real substance to back your opinion. When I used to live there, CCC officers were very receptive to answering any specific questions I had about specific places or policies and I never once felt like they were hiding anything. But i’m also capable of asking questions in an objective and respectable manner. I’m on my way back to the area soon and I will re-join the CCC,  so hopefully my experience this time around will continue to be positive.

This thread has responses that are too long.  Sorry,  didn't read all.

• It is too exposed to be safe on LL. Don't know what 30 years ago was like.
• Via Ferratta is not going to last a day in nc.
• Just put in a few bolts for the really exposed sections. Why not?  There are already 1 or 2 bolts on that scramble out so the precedent is there.

Steven,

I was up on the Lightning Ledge on Sep. 8 of this year. I led a roped team of 3 off the ledge. The only part I recall being at all questionable was the stance at the top of the bolted "climbing" section at the end of the walk-off. I was hip belaying the other climbers up from there, and remember standing on loose soil and positioning behind a dead tree trunk. It was sufficient but not ideal. With time what's left of that tree will be of less use, and the stance may become less secure.

I'm still not convinced a bolt is needed there. You could easily walk further up along the scramble above there and find someplace to build a natural or gear anchor.

As far as the traverse along the ledge, I don't remember there being any problems. I may have placed a piece of gear in the rock at some point, I don't remember. I remember clipping the bolts and thinking they were more than adequate. At one point before reaching the bolts on the traverse we went around the high side of a leaning tree. Having one person on each side of the tree protected the traverse well. If that tree has fallen and taken the earth around it with it, then that might have created the sketchy scenario you encountered.

Oh how about the hypocrisy?
The last two PUBLIC ccc events i have been to the speakers talked about climbing and tresspassing, both admitted to tresspassing one of those is private home owner the other carries a terrorism charge since it is federal/a resovoir, both of these were kinda a wink wink dont do this but we did it thing.... oh and also here is exactly where it is and how to do it.....   Is that ethical?? Surely the presentation content was Previewed???

I donated a good chunk of change at both of these events, i was very close to buying a membership but the pill is a little too jagged for me to swallow, im not the type to get on board just cause

How about the TR SC event last year, i took a long break from drinking and chose not to drink for about 8 years i have my own demons, at the ccc sponsored event in a state park which does not allow alcohol i won 24 beers in the raffel, how much would that have sucked for me if i somehow ended up getting in trouble for that.  Keep your shitty craft beer its just a clever disguise for your alcoholism i dont want it. How much of a double standard is there for these guys? Does it endanger access when the climbing organization hosting the event is serving alcohol where it is banned?  it really feels like the old boys club where they can do no wrong but are there to tell everyone else their business.  Good thing my friends know how to recycle beer eyeroll 
If they cant figure out the low lieing ethics of not distributing alcohol at a state park why do they have any say in ethics that involve my life??????????????????????????????????????

Is returning a climb to 5.10x just because the first guy ruined it for everyone else by free soloing it ethical?????(no)  how do park rangers feel about this? Do they want us to be safe or do they want to come scrape dead climbers off the cliff from time to time??  How does that affect access? 

Free soloing has its place and if/when you as a human are ready to take on that challenge it is.....an experience, but asking everyone else to do it just because you were the first to go up this climb is wrong.  this seems to be a core value of ccc and i disagree, you want x rated? just leave the rope at home.... its actually way easier anyway.
Why does the best pitch of 5.9+/5.11 in NC which is 100% on public land with 100% legal public access keep getting removed from MP?  I’ll tell you why, because the ccc keeps having it removed... laurel knob has the exact same situation private property up top, the solution in both situatons is to simply rap off before you get to private property. mike just hasnt written a book on it yet so no one is allowed to publicly post eyerollThey can publish a book showing ghost town near rumbling bald but say you cant access it????again its thiers to manage but meh also guarenteed they would have it removed if posted here even if you said it was closed. By the way thats the best crack climbing in the south east according to a public comment by ccc member. 

How about:
Sagee
Fodderstack
Brushyface
Buzzard rock
Pace craig
So many others
Can i talk about those? Is that approved by the ccc?? probably not but all of them are 100% on public land and realistically have no access issues although im sure some would be raised out of thin air.   These places are public i pay taxes for this.  They should not be controlled by a private group including info about them, especially for monitary gain.

Also why the hidden valley area is removed from MP so CCC can pull profits from the bookIts their area tho if they wanna be crappy about sharing beta they get to do it.... but im gonna bitch about it.  ;)  :*Im really so fed up with this crap

. wrote: Oh how about the hypocrisy?
The last two PUBLIC ccc events i have been to the speakers talked about climbing and tresspassing, both admitted to tresspassing one of those is private home owner the other carries a terrorism charge since it is federal/a resovoir, both of these were kinda a wink wink dont do this but we did it thing.... oh and also here is exactly where it is and how to do it.....   Is that ethical?? Surely the presentation content was Previewed???

I donated a good chunk of change at both of these events, i was very close to buying a membership but the pill is a little too jagged for me to swallow, im not the type to get on board just cause

How about the TR SC event last year, i took a long break from drinking and chose not to drink for about 8 years i have my own demons, at the ccc sponsored event in a state park which does not allow alcohol i won 24 beers in the raffel, how much would that have sucked for me if i somehow ended up getting in trouble for that.  Keep your shitty craft beer its just a clever disguise for your alcoholism i dont want it. How much of a double standard is there for these guys? Does it endanger access when the climbing organization hosting the event is serving alcohol where it is banned?  it really feels like the old boys club where they can do no wrong but are there to tell everyone else their business.  Good thing my friends know how to recycle beer eyeroll 
If they cant figure out the low lieing ethics of not distributing alcohol at a state park why do they have any say in ethics that involve my life??????????????????????????????????????
Is returning a climb to 5.10x just because the first guy ruined it for everyone else by free soloing it ethical?????(no)  how do park rangers feel about this? Do they want us to be safe or do they want to come scrape dead climbers off the cliff from time to time??  How does that affect access? 

Free soloing has its place and if/when you as a human are ready to take on that challenge it is.....an experience, but asking everyone else to do it just because you were the first to go up this climb is wrong.  this seems to be a core value of ccc and i disagree, you want x rated? just leave the rope at home.... its actually way easier anyway.
Why does the best pitch of 5.9+/5.11 in NC which is 100% on public land with 100% legal public access keep getting removed from MP?  I’ll tell you why, because the ccc keeps having it removed... laurel knob has the exact same situation private property up top, the solution in both situatons is to simply rap off before you get to private property. mike just hasnt written a book on it yet so no one is allowed to publicly post eyerollThey can publish a book showing ghost town near rumbling bald but say you cant access it????again its thiers to manage but meh also guarenteed they would have it removed if posted here even if you said it was closed. By the way thats the best crack climbing in the south east according to a public comment by ccc member. 

How about:
Sagee
Fodderstack
Brushyface
Buzzard rock
Pace craig
So many others
Can i talk about those? Is that approved by the ccc?? probably not but all of them are 100% on public land and realistically have no access issues although im sure some would be raised out of thin air.   These places are public i pay taxes for this.  They should not be controlled by a private group including info about them, especially for monitary gain.

Also why the hidden valley area is removed from MP so CCC can pull profits from the bookIts their area tho if they wanna be crappy about sharing beta they get to do it.... but im gonna bitch about it.  ;)  :*Im really so fed up with this crap

Did you drink all those beers before you posted this?

Holy crap... it’s wroy all over again.

Kyle, you seem like an intelligent guy, but your passions are getting the better of you. Honestly, is everything ok?   With some perspective I think you'd see that this heightened ranting about the CCC is misplaced.  Your points may be valid and certainly you are entitled to your own opinion, but the scale is way off bro. It's really not that big of a deal. It's just a semi-organized group of climbers trying to make good decisions.  No one is out to ruin your life or anything.  Also, is all this hate and resentment good for your health? I wish I knew you so I could fill your heart with some joyful healing energy. Please take care and be gentle.  

Having been up Lightning Ledge before and after the fire which has aided the erosion, there are other possible routes to cross that gap you are speaking of besides below the small rock feature. When guiding that, I would generally traverse on the rock above the traditional path avoiding the hazard. Take a look around next time you go up there and choose better terrain.

Table Rock is not within the Designated Wilderness

Sorry to kick a hornets nest. Not what I was intending. This has been educational for me. I really appreciate all the comments from you guys in the climbing community.

Hey, Conor Mark I will try to grab some measurements and pictures (weather permitting) next outing but it will been a while before I can get back over to Table Rock.

Hey, Travis Weil, I will check out the alternative way you described. I love an adventure.

Hey, Chuck Parks, what you described is a lot like we experienced. I am trying to be objective in my description but I was shocked and concerned at how much L.L. had eroded. I just care so deeply for a climbing area like Table Rock that has enrichened my life. I just went into "How can I fix it mode?" and was looking for guidance.

Hey, Spaggett Gotcha! I'm coming up on 50 an my memory may be a little fuzzy LOL! I do get long winded. Thank you for paraphrasing and condensing my post.

Hey, Kyle, I appreciate your honesty and passion about climbing. Life is about balance. Be kind, but don’t let people abuse you. Trust, but don’t be deceived. Be content, but never stop improving yourself.

I wish we in TN had big rocks to climb like you guy in NC. If any of you would like to climb some sandstone or rope up for a route or two on Devils Racetrack, just let me know. I'll give ya' the nickel tour. 

I'm a coward who hates lightning ledge with a passion, but I don't really think it needs any more bolts. It feels pretty safe as long as you do the kiwi coil/short rope thing. Clip the two bolts that are on it, keep a couple trees between each part member, etc.

It's definitely not a "walk off" as most people would understand the term, imo, and the vague description in the selects book (and, for the most part, radio silence about it on relevant route pages) is going to get someone into trouble one day--but on the other hand, it's a fairly tame introduction to the kind of problem solving that topping out climbs often entails.

I went up to LL with a newer climber once expecting a walk off. It is not a walk off, it is more of a 4th class traversing pitch- quite exposed. We said screw that, and rapped off cave route and walked off lunch ledge, which is more akin to an actual walk off. Finishing routes up this side of Table Rock is a PITA, it's so dirty and unstable near the top.

I feel I recommend this too often on this topic:  why not just leave via my route (an easy 2p 5.5/5.6) to the top from lunch ledge?  It's way more fun anyways (than the bullshit scramble that is the subject of the thread).

If your route goes to lighting ledge and misses lunch ledge, then do what Ben recommends and rap down to lunch ledge then leave via my route top out or walk back to bottom.

Edit to add:  you can also climb out from the right side of lightning ledge (from near block route anchors) straight up the left side of the obvious buttress.  It's a 5.7ish corner. Just watch a few loose blocks on it.  No idea what it's called but I'm sure someone has a seleced climbs book handy.

You should definitely add bolts, maybe even a ladder. Climbing 30+ years you may even want to think about paving the trail so your rascal can make the round trip even easier. 

^^ If I'm not mistaken that's the legal representation for the ccc. Kyle you're not alone and venting doesn't make you a bad guy. People especially in groups don't like being called out and a lot of what you say is true. I do really like the current president at the moment though, he is a damn good guy solid climber. Some of the others are damn good people to. That good old boy shit you mention, oh boy, hammer drove the nail on that one.

• Hey Rick Carpenter, don't forget the Taco stands with beer at the base of ever pitch LOL!