Stop Making Movies About White Guys Doing Cool Shit: The Sequel

Kris Fiore wrote:

Yo for sure South Africa has a way way complicated racial history, among the most complicated in the world. I shouldn't have been so oversimplifying with that. But South Africa is still only 10% white so it would have been cool for them to find someone local to throw down with. 

And again, I still don't think they have a single black person on their page. I haven't watched them all but I haven't seen anyone.

Clearly, an answer based on experience at a location is not what you want.

I've got nothing to add to this delightful discourse but this -
​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxmnXszTm2w​​​

Kris Fiore wrote:

Yo for sure South Africa has a way way complicated racial history, among the most complicated in the world. I shouldn't have been so oversimplifying with that. But South Africa is still only 10% white so it would have been cool for them to find someone local to throw down with. 

And again, I still don't think they have a single black person on their page. I haven't watched them all but I haven't seen anyone.

You mean like a token POC climber?

I’m not so sure you understand what’s going on in this world. I don’t think if I had stayed in my country that I would be climbing at all. Not because I wouldn’t want to. I wouldn’t have time to spare from eking out for myself. I would imagine that’s the case in many countries. Now that I’m in US I have the luxury of time, that’s my privilege. My weekdays go to the man and weekends are for me and family. We spend our free time doing the stuff that makes us feel better instead of toiling away. Climbing is an outlet for all of us. I understood there are untold hurdles for many people to get into it but the climbing community ain’t one of them. The author chose a wrong hill to die on and it seems like you’re marching up it as well.

Shay Subramanian wrote: POC chiming in, born in India (lived here most my life though). I've met one other Indian climber in my life so you could say it makes me very happy to see other Indians getting outdoors. I hate that I have to say that btw, I don't think that exclusively qualifies my opinion any more than any white guy's, but I feel like my points will only be taken at face value if I do...

In conclusion I think we're doing a fine job as a community making climbing more inclusive and the author's tone is uncalled for. We can all do more and there will always be people who are on the forefront of that that I'm very grateful for, but not everything in climbing needs to be about promoting inclusivity. We can enjoy white men pulling hard, keep supporting efforts to promote inclusivity, and enjoy more women/POC pulling hard down the road. It's not happening overnight like the author would like it to.

Well yeah, but apparently (according to Kris anyway) your skin is not dark enough, so your opinion doesn't matter.

Kris Fiore wrote:  
Unpopular opinion, the darker skinned you are and the more outspoken you are the more you face challenges of racism. So when light-skinned POC make jokes that ease the pressure for white folks they are perpetuating the problem. It’s not new to point out how much anti-black hate there is among Hispanics. There is a difference between racism and anti-blackness and immigrants/brown people are just as able to perform anti-blackness as white people. In fact, many times over history has seen light-skinned people of color dodge racism by joining white folks. Jews gained sympathy among white people during World War II when they started becoming seen as white.

Just a reminder that it is not enough to be POC... Now there are grades to it according to our woke brother Kris... 

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

You mean like a token POC climber?

You can invite a POC to climb with you and not tokenize them.

Look I'm not trying to make it sound like I have all the answers, I don't. This is the first thread in years that I've invested myself in this deeply into. I just think we can acknowledge white privilege and white dominance in climbing media and not fall to weeping pieces about it.

Andrei Steclaru wrote: Well yeah, but apparently (according to Kris anyway) your skin is not dark enough, so your opinion doesn't matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

That isn't a point I ever made.

But hey, makes for a good one-liner, nicely done.

Andrei Steclaru wrote: You literally did only 2 pages ago:

What I said was that POC can be anti-black. I did not say "your skin is not dark enough, so your opinion doesn't matter." That is the definition of a straw man fallacy. You slightly changed my argument and then attacked a version of my argument which I did not make.

ClimbRunner Wrote: Also [snark alert] are you sponsored by Evolv partly because you are woke enough to list your preferred gender pronouns on instagram, or is it because of all those 5.12 single pitches you've projected I'm only asking because sponsor slots are finite, so shouldn't you have suggested they replace you with an equal or less accomplished POC instead of yet another privileged cis/het white guy? [/snark alert]

1. I genuinely have thought about giving up my sponsorship because of this.  

2. You’re right, I’m definitely not sponsored because I crush it, I’m sponsored because I’m an active volunteer and voice in my local climbing community and I've done a bunch of route development. I have a resume that is literally barely enough to be sponsored by purely physical standards.

3. I'm not heterosexual. I have no idea why I feel the need to clarify this but since you called me het, why not?

4. I’m making an attempt to use my (humorously barely) elevated platform for some social good. That starts with admitting that part of my freedom to climb is my privilege.  

5. When you resort to jabbing at someone’s personality instead of their argument you’re not doing well. Notice I haven’t done it once in this entire thread.

-------------------------

For what it's worth I'm out of replies allowed so I won't be replying any longer. Enjoy.

Kris Fiore wrote:

You can invite a POC to climb with you and not tokenize them.

Look I'm not trying to make it sound like I have all the answers, I don't. This is the first thread in years that I've invested myself in this deeply into. I just think we can acknowledge white privilege and white dominance in climbing media and not fall to weeping pieces about it.

Can you define what it is to tokenize someone in a way we should view as immoral or as an ethical failing?

Also [snark alert] are you sponsored by Evolv partly because you are woke enough to list your preferred gender pronouns on instagram, or is it because of all those 5.12 single pitches you've projected? I'm only asking because sponsor slots are finite, so shouldn't you have suggested they replace you with an equal or less accomplished POC instead of helping yet another privileged cis/het white guy? [/snark alert]

Retro edit:

Note: I mention your hypocrisy to cast doubt on your own commitments to the principles you ask others to hold.

Your arguments about under-representation being due to privilege and racism in climbing are baseless and would be wrong  even without from your own demonstrated unwillingness to embody supposed solutions.

I'm genuinely sorry I assumed you were straight. Isn't it counterproductive when someone assumes they know about you based on a quick look at your skin color or other immutable traits? Luckily for you, despite what gender theory and oppression  matrices would predict, Gay men now out earn ($) straight men in the US.

ClimberRunner wrote:

Can you define what it is to tokenize someone in a way we should view as immoral or as an ethical failing?

Also [snark alert] are you sponsored by Evolv partly because you are woke enough to list your preferred gender pronouns on instagram, or is it because of all those 5.12 single pitches you've projected?
 I'm only asking because sponsor slots are finite, so shouldn't you have suggested they replace you with an equal or less accomplished POC instead of another privileged cis/het white guy? [/snark alert]

Zing! BOOSH! Oh no he didn't! 

Kris Fiore wrote:

You can invite a POC to climb with you and not tokenize them.

Look I'm not trying to make it sound like I have all the answers, I don't. This is the first thread in years that I've invested myself in this deeply into. I just think we can acknowledge white privilege and white dominance in climbing media and not fall to weeping pieces about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

That isn't a point I ever made.

But hey, makes for a good one-liner, nicely done.

You literally did only 2 pages ago:

Kris Fiore wrote:
Unpopular opinion, the darker skinned you are and the more outspoken you are the more you face challenges of racism. So when light-skinned POC make jokes that ease the pressure for white folks they are perpetuating the problem. It’s not new to point out how much anti-black hate there is among Hispanics. There is a difference between racism and anti-blackness and immigrants/brown people are just as able to perform anti-blackness as white people. In fact, many times over history has seen light-skinned people of color dodge racism by joining white folks. Jews gained sympathy among white people during World War II when they started becoming seen as white.

Kris Fiore wrote: Jews gained sympathy among white people during World War II when they started becoming seen as white.

Yes, THAT is why Jews gained widespread sympathy during WWII.

Can't think of any other reason.

Artem Vasilyev wrote: I'm unsubscribing from updates to this thread, I'd recommend others do the same. Time to lay this one to rest. 

HaHa! no way it's just getting better and better. I'll unsubscribe when kris stops digging his trench he is stuck in. The only way this thread would get better is if the author of the article started posting. I climbed in south Africa as well and I was open to climbing with anyone of any ethnicity, unfortunately the only black man I saw at a climbing crag was mugging me at knife point. Had he come up to me and ask to climb with me I would have been a whole hell of a lot happier to accommodate him. Just to clarify, I did not judge this mugger of ours because he was black, I judged him because he threatened to stab me for a pair of sunglasses. I recognized that he was poverty stricken and probably had a history of hardships that I could not imagine, but that's certainly not why I emptied my bag and gave him the sunglasses, the varied reason's that he was robbing me and not climbing with me are to large to sum up. There are dozens of reasons for this, linked to poverty, racism, culture and all sorts of other good and awful reason's but it's safe to say none of the reason's have anything to do with the climbing community being exclusive. I think Kris that you should take a climbing trip to South Africa. First of all because it's a beautiful country to climb in and second of all you might stop making assumptions about things you might not be aware of. I would be surprised if there was more than two or three black people in the entire country that climbed. That being said I met lots of wonderful, kind and hospitable, black south africans, it's just that none of them were climbers, who cares, they probably had other hobbies. I only spent a month there so I'm by no means that knowledgeable about the race problems, just sharing my experience of the climbing scene there.    

Kris Fiore wrote: easily the most sacred of his [Kris'] beliefs being in the pursuit of a more balanced society respectful of all genders and gender expressions. He sees this pursuit as a goal that, while it may not ever be achieved, should never be abandoned. https://www.unirondack.org/profile/kris-fiore/

So do these imbalances bother a sacred belief of achieving gender balance across society? Or since that belief is sacred, is it beyond influence of evidence and reconsideration?

Or not so much, such they contradict intersectionalist theory which says that the darker skinned and female cohorts, subject to the greatest degree of institutional oppression, should do the worst on outcomes?

Kris Fiore wrote: Unpopular opinion, the darker skinned you are and the more outspoken you are the more you face challenges of racism. So when light-skinned POC make jokes that ease the pressure for white folks they are perpetuating the problem. It’s not new to point out how much anti-black hate there is among Hispanics. There is a difference between racism and anti-blackness and immigrants/brown people are just as able to perform anti-blackness as white people. In fact, many times over history has seen light-skinned people of color dodge racism by joining white folks. Jews gained sympathy among white people during World War II when they started becoming seen as white.

Please stop "policing my tone" (your words) and assuming you know the reason behind my joke (it was for the thumbs up). You've already misidentified my ethnicity once in this thread to accuse me of racism, and now you're making a pretty serious implication based solely on the ethnic group you finally figured out I belong to. So far you're the only white person here making me feel uncomfortable being a Latino climber.

Also, none of you racists hit me up yet. WTF

Guys, be nice. Kris just grew up in a pure white household, in a pure white suburb, and didn’t know much of the “colored” world until college, when he saw two black guys at his mostly white university. He’s just making up for lost time. Meanwhile the rest of us who grew up in culturally diverse families and neighborhoods can simply say, “f**k this woke cabron”

ClimberRunner wrote:

So do these imbalances bother your sacred belief? Or since it's sacred, is it beyond influence of evidence and reconsideration?

Or not so much, such they contradict intersectionalist religious theory?

Uhh this is what intersectionality is about. Its about acknowledging that there are different aspects and categories which things fall into. Not simply dichotomies that we can attach theories or beliefs onto.
Its not just white vs black or vs anything. Its a mix of gender, social class, country of origin, history in the US, etc. Even from your data you could take it further by breaking it down into what fields are these degrees earned in. Engineering, sociology, "soft" science or "hard" science, etc? Why are only 20% of engineering degrees to women if they're disproportionately going to college more?
Answering those questions is the whole point of intersectional gender studies.

Do they have libraries or bookstores anymore?

ClimberRunner wrote:
I'm not talking about reasonable left-wing feminist folks like Lena Chita, who contributes nuanced progressive views to these discussions. I'm talking about the crowd at Melanin Basecamp, Terra Incognita, #wontTakeShift, etc who insist that climbing (like basically every facet of modern life in the western world) is a racist, sexist, and oppressively capitalist rigged system.

Weird... I do consider myself a reasonable person, as well as a feminist, and that makes me left-wing. There is a spectrum of convictions, and I'm not on the far fringe.

But hearing this coming from some sources makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

A FREE climbing film about one of the greatest climbers of all time...
If you find something offensive about it, maybe don't watch it?
You are not a victim, you are a volunteer.

Interesting discussion.  I have noted so far that mostly the POC or those from different backgrounds seems to think the author doesn't know what she is talking about.  While the good meaning white folks seem to know otherwise (yet they argue with these people that they know better?).  I think I will go with the POC folks having a better grasp on this subject and consider their advice to weigh more then white kids from the burbs.

HughC wrote: Interesting discussion.  I have noted so far that mostly the POC or those from different backgrounds seems to think the author doesn't know what she is talking about.  While the good meaning white folks seem to know otherwise (yet they argue with these people that they know better?).

If you have some spare time do cursory research on racism, misogyny and homophobia in minority groups. Quite something, really.

amarius wrote:

If you have some spare time do cursory research on racism, misogyny and homophobia in minority groups. Quite something, really.

This is where we are at? Minorities need whitey to convince them they are being oppressed? Edit: Several pages back there was a comment implying all non-whites are "less fortunate" and thus need to be coddled.