Pros and cons of simul-rappelling

actually we do know what happened to brad. he failed to set up his rope properly and rapped off the end of it almost killing his partner in the process. 

Back in my martial arts days I was a 4thd dan and  something of  a bigshot in the local martial arts community (big fish small pond) but occasionally I would find myself really getting pushed by someone who lacked the rank or reputation to be an obvious threat.  this would remind me of my standard operating theory. Rank and reputation mean nothing. Anyone can and will beat you if you don't actually do the things that earned you that rank. You can't mail it in, you have to actually execute. Same thing goes with climbing. doesn't matter how famous or experienced you are you can still make a noob mistake and get chopped if you don't pay attention and execute properly. 

I've never seen much humble bragging in my life. I knew it would be bad here after ST closed but this thread takes the cake. And after a death no less!

Per the usual there's endless talk about a simple accident. I'm not sure what it is about death that gets people's jaws jawwing, must be the drama.

We all know what would have prevented the accident, knots.

Pro: Simulrapping is faster, that's it.
Con: It's more prone to death.

Tradiban wrote: I've never seen much humble bragging in my life. I knew it would be bad here after ST closed but this thread takes the cake. And after a death no less!

Per the usual there's endless talk about a simple accident. I'm not sure what it is about death that gets people's jaws jawwing, must be the drama.

We all know what would have prevented the accident, knots.

Pro: Simulrapping is faster, that's it.
Con: It's more prone to death.

Trying to understand an accident is not humble bragging. There's the simple answer to what happened, which leads to reassuringly simple solutions ("just don't make mistakes"). When it seems unbelievable that someone would make that simple mistake, there is typically a more complex chain of events that contributed to the final tragic mistake.  

Personally, I don't mind what I choose to call calm/sober discussion ... sort of a little MP oasis.

Generally speaking, those involved didn't see it coming else they would have done something to prevent it.  And so it can seem that there must have been a complex chain of events.

In this tragic case, there seems to be more known details than is typical.  Choosing speed - not having backups, cutting some corners - and a critical mis-judgment of distance versus rope length.  I think both partners effectively bought into that no matter the inter-personal dynamics that day.

In my experience with close calls, rather than a complex chain of events, it is the intra-personal and inter-personal dynamics that are complex.  And we only have so much mental real estate, some like me with less than many.

Tradiban wrote:
We all know what would have prevented the accident, knots.

Pro: Simulrapping is faster, that's it.
Con: It's more prone to death.

Knots would have only prevented the climbers from rapping off the end of the rope. Knots would not have prevented the accident, only changed the length of the fall. 

I consider simul rapping something to be done when there is no other option. I'd much rather have my life in my own hands.
The only time I've done one was a counter balance off opposite sides to escape a Wonderland dummy dome with no anchor. 

Quote Mikey S from pg 2:"Instead of tying a stopper knot in the end of the rope before you rap just tie a overhand on a bite and clip it to you.  So when you get to the anchor there isn't any rope to pull up.  Just unclip from the harness and feed it.  And in a place like EPC this reduces the likelihood of the stopper knot getting stuck as you always maintain control of the end.  Also makes it impossible to forget to untie the stopper knot when you pull the rope."

Anyone else try this? Sort of got glossed over early in the thread ... this seems like an extremely sensible suggestion and safer than just a stopper knot - with the benefit of having the ends at hand next anchor. Downside might be potential rope loop snaggage or twisting- but you could always just unclip and drop the knot.  Tethering to your partner- evidently safer? - seems like a hassle and would make me extremely uncomfortable.   

Nick Goldsmith wrote: actually we do know what happened to brad. he failed to set up his rope properly and rapped off the end of it almost killing his partner in the process. 

I agree. Also, it is one thing to put your own life in your hands when choosing to take extra risks just for the sake of it, but quite another when you involve someone else. Think about how tragic the situation would have been if the deaths were reversed, or if both had perished.

Maidy; This is a decent practice. The main issue is rope twist and kink gets bad as you near the anchor and on a long rappel this sucks up several feet of rope length. All systems work well done correctly. My comment about the gri gri getting stuck open presumes both climbers were weighting the system. Brad was working on the rope snag. The trigger could have snagged on something in the moment he leaned back to continue. Right then. Going from leaning forward at work to leaning back. Trigger snags and off you go. When this happened to me I was near the top of the rope and so things happened slowly due to all the rope weight friction below. I was able to grab the brake hand side and stop pretty easy. What it showed me is that it can happen and is one more thing to look out for. Brad was at the long stretched end of a less than 10 mil rope. Things would happen very fast in that situation.

Bill Lawry wrote
Generally speaking, those involved didn't see it coming else they would have done something to prevent it.  And so it can seem that there must have been a complex chain of events.

In this tragic case, there seems to be more known details than is typical.  Choosing speed - not having backups, cutting some corners - and a critical mis-judgment of distance versus rope length.  I think both partners effectively bought into that no matter the inter-personal dynamics that day.

In my experience with close calls, rather than a complex chain of events, it is the intra-personal and inter-personal dynamics that are complex.  And we only have so much mental real estate, some like me with less than many.

I think we're saying the same thing. Attitudes, expectations, feelings, decisions, interpersonal interactions, distractions, conversations (or lack thereof), reactions to events, etc. are all possible contributing factors to the chain of events that builds towards an accident. At the end of the day, it's usually the human factors that lead to unwise decisions rather than something completely external and unforeseeable that gets you. 

Brandon R wrote:

Knots would have only prevented the climbers from rapping off the end of the rope. Knots would not have prevented the accident, only changed the length of the fall. 

What have you been smoking? Because I've got to get some.

Brandon R wrote:

Knots would have only prevented the climbers from rapping off the end of the rope. Knots would not have prevented the accident, only changed the length of the fall. 

Please explain because that’s kinda what knots are for.  

If two parties simul-rappel and one has a short rope end with a knot, that person gets stopped by the knot and sits there still acting as a counter weight for the second. The second then has all of the rest of the rope and presumably reaches the ledge/anchor/ground. Once there, they simply lower the first guy stuck up in the air above. 

Brandon R wrote:

Knots would have only prevented the climbers from rapping off the end of the rope. Knots would not have prevented the accident, only changed the length of the fall. 

Let's say one of the climbers totally let go of the rope 30-40' above a knotted end. I think that could cause some bruises, scrapes, and potential sprains.

This also seems like just about the worst outcome on a closed system with solid anchors.

That seems like a whole world different than what happened. I think you need to come back and explain yourself, cause this just doesn't come close to making sense.

Observation: Every single account of a simul-rap fatality I have ever heard has involved someone losing control of or letting go of the brake end of the ATC, someone rapping off the end of the rope, or some combination of these two things. Based on this observation, the use of GriGris and knots in the end of the rope while simulrapping would vastly increase the safety margin and likely prevent the majority of those fatalities.

Question: Has there ever been a reported simul-rap fatality where both climbers were using GriGris, and there were knots in both end of the rope? This isn't to ask whether it is possible (there are numerous theoretical failure mechanisms for any system), but whether it has ever actually happened.

Climber A loses control of rappel. Climber B is in free-fall now, but hits a ledge before knot reaches climber A. I'd call that an accident still. Rapping off the end of the rope isn't the only way to hurt yourself. 

The fact that this "discussion" has gone to 12 pages is mind numbing..
And, frankly, a prime example of part of the issue:

There is no debate here.
TIE YOUR KNOTS!
This is the "ABCs" of climbing....
End of discussion.

S B wrote: The fact that this "discussion" has gone to 12 pages is mind numbing..
And, frankly, a prime example of part of the issue:

There is no debate here.
TIE YOUR KNOTS!
This is the "ABCs" of climbing....
End of discussion.

Okay...  Of course tie knots in the end. And yes, nobody is debating that. Just putting knots in the rope is not an absolute guarantee of safety though. 

Brandon R wrote: Just putting knots in the rope is not an absolute guarantee of safety though. 

Correct. If it was we would just tie knots in the ends of our ropes, attach our ATC's, and jump from the anchors, because all would be O.K. Since it does not work that way, the knots are the (inferior) backup, only to be relied upon when your primary system (ATC or grigri) fails to create friction on the rope.

L Kap wrote:

I think we're saying the same thing. Attitudes, expectations, feelings, decisions, interpersonal interactions, distractions, conversations (or lack thereof), reactions to events, etc. are all possible contributing factors to the chain of events that builds towards an accident. At the end of the day, it's usually the human factors that lead to unwise decisions rather than something completely external and unforeseeable that gets you. 

True.  Probably significant overlap in our views.