Belay <insert demeaning word describing management> says - "No ATC for you!"

Robert Hernandez wrote: This discussion is hilarious. It all is a function of  what you climb. No one is climbing hard sport on an ATC, and the GRI has drawbacks in the mountains and on multi pitch routes so sometimes an ATC is preferable. Sure, I don't wear my seatbelt when I offroad, but on the street you'd be a fool not to.  But lol to the belayers who use an ATC it because it is easier for them. I would love to see you use an ATC for a 50+ minute marathon project session with 20+ falls and accompanying boinking. Well, I am gonna pass up that belay for sure, but use of an ATC says a lot about the type of climbing you do as well as the rock you climb on. I would never take a belay on SW choss without an ABD; I have seen bealyers get knocked out and the climber survive because of the ABD features. And to those who are discussing the twelve different types of ABD, LOL again, perhaps you should all try focusing on climbing instead of buying equipment. If you haven't found your belay device of choice after three different ABD devices you probably never will.

And of course the GRI is the belay weapon of choice for professionals, but, what would they know? Bunch of Noobs who probably can't belay anyway.

6 pages of pointless flame from trad dads getting mad about not being able to use an ATC in a gym they'll never go in/overly protective people of the way of the future.

I had a buddy who gets out and climbs a few times a year with us and is all about how "the ATC feeds soo much faster" so we made him belay the hangdog bro. He was pretty cool to learn the gri gri after that.

Everything has its place and gyms are going to say that ABD are for the gym. Don't like it then don't go in to the gym.

Gumby the White wrote:

Unfortunately, I can't un-see what I just saw....

Pretty usual for millennial users. Ask your mom for a special cookie.

M Mobes wrote:

Pretty usual for millennial users. Ask your mom for a special cookie.

Every time i eat one of her special cookies I either pass out for 10 hours or have a crazy out of body experience usually resulting in a panic attack. I stay away from those special cookies now...

John Byrnes wrote:

I agree, and disagree.  From what I can see the gumbies are everywhere outside too.  

I think the big "problem" is that so many people treat belaying just as they treat driving a car (ie. mainstream).   They think it's easy, and not deserving of their thought and attention until it's too late.

10/10

If people were forced to catch a few big falls under controlled circumstances it might be some good food for thought.

John Reeve wrote:

I mean, just the twin/half ropes thing pretty much rules out the "one-ring-to-rule-them-all" grigri deal.

Adding a bunch of tackle to my rap knot is also somewhat terrifying in its own way, which what ended up shelving the reepschnurtlelerlerl thing for me... I was looking into that because I'd rather not carry a second rope big enough to rap on.  

I'm gonna get a grigri at some point.  I have an eddy and ropesoloed with it this weekend.  I like it for TR but don't like belaying leaders with it.  Even if I have one I think I will still stick to ATC in guide mode when bringing up seconds.

At the end of the day, though, I feel like the person using the device is so much more important... I've used other folks gris in the past at their request and I'm always thinking that if I didn't trust the belayer to catch me with a gri, then I'd just rather go hiking or solo the pitch or get drunk and play banjo.

how often do you use twin/half ropes? and have you actually ever used that guide mode? guide mode is the most annoying part of the atc... it feeds like shit! thats the main reason to switch! 

Love the Grigri! Love the ATC for multi... they both live peacefully in my kit!

E MuuD wrote:... they both live peacefully in my kit!

Mine too.

Rarely see here the maligned “trad guy” insisting everyone always use a tuber.

Rather, it is largely the mostly sport climber insisting everyone use an ABD.

Patrik wrote:

The amount of sloppy "belays" I see these days have grown exponentially in the last decade or so. Maybe the invention of ABDs (Assisted Braking Device) actually introduced the problem.

Exactly.  When has technology ever actually solved one problem without introducing others?

Jordan Wilson wrote:

6 pages of pointless flame from trad dads getting mad about not being able to use an ATC in a gym they'll never go in/overly protective people of the way of the future.

I had a buddy who gets out and climbs a few times a year with us and is all about how "the ATC feeds soo much faster" so we made him belay the hangdog bro. He was pretty cool to learn the gri gri after that.

Everything has its place and gyms are going to say that ABD are for the gym. Don't like it then don't go in to the gym.

Well the moral of the story is don't climb with lame-ass hangdogs.  Lower their ass, pull that shit and make them re-lead it!  Jeez what do they teach you kids now a days?

Get off my lawn! and outta my crag!

wolfsburgweekender wrote:

how often do you use twin/half ropes? and have you actually ever used that guide mode? guide mode is the most annoying part of the atc... it feeds like shit! thats the main reason to switch! 

Twins are nice for ice...

Guide mode is good for taking two newbies up something. I have never had any problem with it feeding. Maybe the way I set my anchors or something. I use 9.4mm to 9.6mm ropes, which seem to work better than ultra skinny ropes or fatties.

My pet peeve is getting short roped while leading trad by someone who doesn't know how to use a grigri or MegaJul properly. Going for a clip they lock up the device and can't feed me slack. True with any device, but seems to happen to my Grigri using brethren the most. 

Like someone has already said, it has much more to do with the belayer than the device. I am wicked fast with a tube, pretty good with a grigri, and getting to know the MegaJul.  

I was just at RRG and I would say of all the people I saw on 5.11+ or harder routes, only about 50% had a grigri. Not many straight ATC's, but plenty of Jul's, Smart, Pilot even a Beal Birdie... 

Buck Rio wrote:

...  even a Beal Birdie... 

Had to look that one up ...

Bill Lawry wrote:

Had to look that one up ...

As small as it is, it is heavier than a grigri…  the kid that was using it let me try it, feeds smoother than a grigri, but it takes a little bit more force to activate it. Very nice piece of kit IMO.

Bill Lawry wrote:

Mine too.

Rarely see here the maligned “trad guy” insisting everyone always use a tuber.

Rather, it is largely the mostly sport climber insisting everyone use an ABD.

For sure. Like the car seatbelt, those that actually use the new modern technology may possibly know something about catching 20 falls a day. The average trad guy takes about 20 falls over 20 years. Think of it as a warning, its not like the average ABD user wants to make it a law, we just dont want to be there when the tuber doesn't hold.

Robert Hernandez wrote:

Funny.  After 30 years at world class crags in five different continents how could I not? For example, I climbed with Adam Ondra last summer so .  .  . yea, never in my life. Do you want to guess what his professional belayer was using to belay him? I give you a hint, it was what every other belayer was using and it comes from France.

I think Tradiban's point (which was tongue in cheek) was about the belaying skills of certain pros. NOT about their belayers-for-hire.

Robert Hernandez wrote:

Funny.  After 30 years at world class crags in five different continents how could I not? For example, I climbed with Adam Ondra last summer so .  .  . yea, never in my life. Do you want to guess what his professional belayer was using to belay him? I give you a hint, it was what every other belayer was using and it comes from France.

"Most dangerous is that temptation that doth goad us on to sin in loving virtue."

           -Tradiban

Robert Hernandez wrote:

Funny.  After 30 years at world class crags in five different continents how could I not? For example, I climbed with Adam Ondra last summer so .  .  . yea, never in my life. Do you want to guess what his professional belayer was using to belay him? I give you a hint, it was what every other belayer was using and it comes from France.

Was it this?

M Mobes wrote:

For sure. Like the car seatbelt, those that actually use the new modern technology may possibly know something about catching 20 falls a day. The average trad guy takes about 20 falls over 20 years. Think of it as a warning, its not like the average ABD user wants to make it a law, we just dont want to be there when the tuber doesn't hold.

Some that, probably.  And also others who are unknowingly but still totally dependent on the backup assist as the primary brake.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

Was it this?

Of course, the well-known baguette belay.  Works great on cordon bleu, unless your ropes are croissant.

And excusez-moi, but y'all need to chill.

wolfsburgweekender wrote:

have you actually ever used that guide mode? guide mode is the most annoying part of the atc... it feeds like shit! thats the main reason to switch! 

Well, like, two days ago?  And yeah, I've made it feed like crap in guide mode.  If I use a round biner and place it above me, it feeds pretty well.  FWIW, if you're climbing with 3 folks, it's nice cause you can belay two folks at the same time.  I dunno, maybe the gri is better.  ATC guide isn't bad though.

And yeah, I have used it with twin/half ropes.  I'm guessing that you don't?  

Watching the IFSC combined qualifier from Toulouse.  All the belayers are using tube style devices.  Clearly, they don't have any clue what they are doing.