New to training- sore after only a little max effort

My wife and I have been climbing for a little over 4 years. I climb 1-2 times per week (mixed indoor/outdoor depending on the season) and exercise in the weight room 2-3 times per week. My exercise routine focuses on overall fitness, 35mins of HIIT treadmill, tons of pushups, and then a mix of pushing and pulling with free weights. I’m generally stronger than most folks, but due to injuries in the last 3 years I don’t lift heavy any longer (I used to be able to 500/400/275).

I’m writing because my wife and I broke into 5.10 at the Gunks this last wkend and I found myself trying really hard on Teeny Face. The roof was a blast, the crimping made me work, and the top crux required a few falls before figuring it out.  I was quite sore this morning, especially in my shoulders which I have historically considered a strong suit. My fingers have noticeable done some work but feel pretty good.

What do I need to do to get climbing strong so I can climb MULTIPLE 5.10s in a weekend without crapping out?

Climb more 5.10’s. Run laps on overhanging climbs in the gym or outside. Hang board.

Mike G wrote: Climb more 5.10’s. Run laps on overhanging climbs in the gym or outside. Hang board.

Thanks, I was hoping for some more specific recommendations such as lifting heavier, or trying harder routes in the gym vs. lifting for stamina, running laps, etc.

I find that when my shoulders get worked it's usually because I done too much pulling with my arms and not enough pushing with my feet/legs.

Idaho Bob wrote: I find that when my shoulders get worked it's usually because I done too much pulling with my arms and not enough pushing with my feet/legs.

That’d make sense on this particular route, it was basically a 5.10, double roof down low and 70’ of thin crimpin up top.

I know I’ve got a lot of technique to develop, how do I compensate with strength in the mean time?

JRZane wrote:

That’d make sense on this particular route, it was basically a 5.10, double roof down low and 70’ of thin crimpin up top.

I know I’ve got a lot of technique to develop, how do I compensate with strength in the mean time?

Compensating with strength is the number one beginner mistake. Don't do it. Then your technique will improve.  

If climbing is your new thing, I’d scale back on the weights big time.  You’re probably carrying around way more muscle than you need.  The harsh reality is that being lighter is better than being stronger when you’re fighting gravity.  

Ned Plimpton wrote: If climbing is your new thing, I’d scale back on the weights big time.  You’re probably carrying around way more muscle than you need.  The harsh reality is that being lighter is better than being stronger when you’re fighting gravity.  

I understand that. Ive always struggled with my weight and I need to stay very strict with my diet in order to stay fit.  This isn't getting easier as Im approaching 40 either.  Its actually the bigger factor in the decision to not lift heavy, but instead lift light in more climbing-specific ways. (instead of curling 75lbs 20 times, ill curl 50lbs 12 times but focus on "time under tension" meaning ill constrict VERY slowly (each rep may last 6-8 seconds) and do the same on the way down.

Over the last 10 years my weight has stayed between 185-205 whether I was lifting or not. The big variable is if I was eating clean or not. I do take progress pics quarterly and the pics of my body at 185 lifting and 185 not lifting are pretty dramatic. I graduated high school at 185 and don't think I've been able to get under that weight since.

Adding to my comment above, when my shoulders/arms get pumped it frequently means that I'm reaching to high for the next hold instead of working my feet up and/or moving too slowly.

Idaho Bob wrote: Adding to my comment above, when my shoulders/arms get pumped it frequently means that I'm reaching to high for the next hold instead of working my feet up and/or moving too slowly.

also true of this route. Im 5'9 and likely a neutral Ape Index, I was reaching high on small crimps most of the upper half.

so work on my footwork, I get that, and I actually do practice (I put pennies on low footholds and try to put my foot on and then off without knocking off the penny), but Im also hoping for some training suggestions.  Do I need to boulder more? get on harder routes? more lat pull-downs?

This obviously demonstrated that the weight lifting exercises you do don’t target the same muscles that you use while climbing in the same way as you use them for climbing.

The answer is not more weight lifting exercises. Curling 75 lb, vs curling 50 lb different number of times, and more slowly, doesn’t make biceps curls more climbing-specific, regardless of time under tension.

It sounds like weight lifting is something you are very familiar with, and you are looking for answers in the familiar territory. So look up more climbing-specific exercises for shoulders. Eg scapular pull-ups, or I’s,  Ys and Ts. There are lots of exercises out there, for shoulder stability/mobility, or exercises that combine shoulder work with core workout, google them. (E.g. the same i’s Y’s and Ts, but on a balance ball. Or the handstand tucks and pikes using a balance ball, or TRX rings, there are tons of exercises using resistance bands, like I said, google climber shoulder exercises)

But really. You need to climb more. No amount of shoulder exercises will get you from 5.10a to 5.10b, if you don’t have a good base of technique, and decent mileage on routes. 

Lena chita wrote: This obviously demonstrated that the weight lifting exercises you do don’t target the same muscles that you use while climbing in the same way as you use them for climbing.

The answer is not more weight lifting exercises. Curling 75 lb, vs curling 50 lb different number of times, and more slowly, doesn’t make biceps curls more climbing-specific, regardless of time under tension.

It sounds like weight lifting is something you are very familiar with, and you are looking for answers in the familiar territory. So look up more climbing-specific exercises for shoulders. Eg scapular pull-ups, or I’s,  Ys and Ts. There are lots of exercises out there, for shoulder stability/mobility, or exercises that combine shoulder work with core workout, google them. (E.g. the same i’s Y’s and Ts, but on a balance ball. Or the handstand tucks and pikes using a balance ball, or TRX rings, there are tons of exercises using resistance bands, like I said, google climber shoulder exercises)

But really. You need to climb more. No amount of shoulder exercises will get you from 5.10a to 5.10b, if you don’t have a good base of technique, and decent mileage on routes. 

Points taken. just to elaborate, ALL the movements I do I focus on time under tension. Rows, Lat, T-bar (all back exercises) as well as push-type movements with the exception of push-ups.

As far as climbing more, Im 35 minutes from the nearest climbing gym and live in very flat southern NJ, the nearest outdoor climbing is 90mins away. I do have a decent hangboard/mini wall at home and I credit my pretty good finger strength to that.  Obviously Im lacking in other areas.

35 mins is not far away, rather close for most people! As an example I live 20 minutes from the nearest bouldering gym, 45 for the roped climbing gym and 2- 3 hours for real rock.

JRZane wrote:

That’d make sense on this particular route, it was basically a 5.10, double roof down low and 70’ of thin crimpin up top.

I know I’ve got a lot of technique to develop, how do I compensate with strength in the mean time?

From what I see with newer climbers, 5.10 is usually the point where the ability to compensate for lack of technique with strength drops off dramatically. As long as you continue to compensate with strength, you’ll never develop your technique. 

It sounds like you’ve got plenty of general strength and fitness for your level of climbing, it’s time to focus your training on technique if you want to progress. No amount of more/different/better bicep curls is going to get you there. 

You could also decide you don’t need to progress, you’re happier focusing on weight lifting, and be a really strong, fit 5.9 climber. 

You could also decide you don’t need to progress, you’re happier focusing on weight lifting, and be a really strong, fit 5.9 climber. 

I don't exercise because I enjoy it. I hate making myself go. I love the feeling AFTER of course.  I exercise to be a better athlete. Basically to improve my climbing and surfing, self esteem, and being able do things in life without wheezing. I don't need to be a 5.11 trad climber, but if I can climb 5.10 and whole world of classics open up. I already consider myself to be a "5.12 surfer."

I keep hearing "just keep climbing" and Im truly OK with that answer.  If the solution is to keep going on the current trajectory and one day Ill get there.  Or keep climbing 5.10 and one day 5.10 will feel easier, Im OK with those as well.  It all seems a little philosophical tho, ie:  Why is there a training forum if the only answer is "keep climbing?"

JRZane wrote: Why is there a training forum if the only answer is "keep climbing?"

Because you're climbing 5.10, not 5.12. At that level and with your overall fitness you don't need to get stronger to improve, you need to get better at climbing. The way to accomplish that is by climbing more

JRZane wrote: 
I was quite sore this morning, especially in my shoulders which I have historically considered a strong suit. My fingers have noticeable done some work but feel pretty good.

What do I need to do to get climbing strong so I can climb MULTIPLE 5.10s in a weekend without crapping out?

I wouldn't overreact to the soreness, I suspect it's just Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness, I imagine you are familiar with it in lifting. I've done Teeny Face many times, when technique is poor (missing feet or not using core properly), you are basically doing shit ton of negative pullups which work your shoulders to death.

Fitness gym will never replace climbing. Lena's suggestion is very good. Hangboard doesn't help technique or train endurance.

Do more hanging specific exercises like hanging leg raise (Toes to bar), Front Lever (I personally haven't been able to do since high school).

JRZane wrote:

I don't exercise because I enjoy it. I hate making myself go. I love the feeling AFTER of course.  I exercise to be a better athlete. Basically to improve my climbing and surfing, self esteem, and being able do things in life without wheezing. I don't need to be a 5.11 trad climber, but if I can climb 5.10 and whole world of classics open up. I already consider myself to be a "5.12 surfer."

I keep hearing "just keep climbing" and Im truly OK with that answer.  If the solution is to keep going on the current trajectory and one day Ill get there.  Or keep climbing 5.10 and one day 5.10 will feel easier, Im OK with those as well.  It all seems a little philosophical tho, ie:  Why is there a training forum if the only answer is "keep climbing?"

Because at 5.10, if you have a reasonable base of fitness already, "keep climbing" will likely get you to 5.11. With some exceptions, there's just not that much specific fitness development that needs to happen to climb 5.10 consistently. If you're just breaking into 5.10, odds are good the limiting factor is not fitness as much as it is: movement skill/technique, application of those skills at the right time, placing protection effectively and efficiently, resting/recovering on route, reading sequences, identifying good stances, knowing when to punch it through a crux versus engage with the pump to place that mid-crux pro, being mentally fit to commit to going for it or backing off appropriately, trusting the gear and your belayer to keep you off the ground if you blow it, controlling breathing, managing self talk, etc.

Those things are all rather difficult to develop in the weight room, on a hangboard, etc. The quickest path to success is probably to keep climbing, but to do so mindfully and intentionally, identifying specific weaknesses and working on them on specific routes.

JRZane wrote:

I don't exercise because I enjoy it. I hate making myself go. I love the feeling AFTER of course.  I exercise to be a better athlete. Basically to improve my climbing and surfing, self esteem, and being able do things in life without wheezing. I don't need to be a 5.11 trad climber, but if I can climb 5.10 and whole world of classics open up. I already consider myself to be a "5.12 surfer."

I keep hearing "just keep climbing" and Im truly OK with that answer.  If the solution is to keep going on the current trajectory and one day Ill get there.  Or keep climbing 5.10 and one day 5.10 will feel easier, Im OK with those as well.  It all seems a little philosophical tho, ie:  Why is there a training forum if the only answer is "keep climbing?"

Some of us didn’t say “keep climbing”, we said “train technique”, because it sounds like that’s what you most need to progress from where you are. There’s more to training than lifting weights. 

I get why you don't want to go to the gym even though you live so close if you have kids or something, but I'm confused why you are spending so much time with weights when you have a home woody and hangboard. Why not do more specific climbing training?

Also, you write as though you are surprised that you were sore after trying your first 5.10. As a rule of thumb, I would expect to be sore and need a couple rest days any time I'm trying my hardest thing ever. Plus, consider that you probably climbed parts of the crux 3 or 4 times before figuring it out. Next time when you go back and send it first go, spending a lot less time hanging around to get the gear, I would expect you to be less sore afterwards.

Seems like lots of good advice already on this thread.

Since I am back to climbing I treat my other training as mainly injury prevention.  I do the I/T/Ys, mobility work, pushups,pull-ups, and a few core exercise.  I keep this to a minimum so I can still recover from my climbing days.

I am usually sore after a hard climbing day and consider this normal.