party of 3 on multipitch

Interesting fact is self-resque basics could be learned in a mere couple weeks (smthng like four two hours classes + two full weekends). After such a course one would be able to solve a wide variety of resque in small group tasks (for sure, one needs to invest some time to practice self resque permanently, e.g., one night per month).

Another interesting fact is self-resque practice implies more effective rope systems management on long climbs (read: climb faster and safer). Basically such a practice makes climbers better.

Pavel Burov wrote:

Interesting fact is self-resque basics could be learned in a mere couple weeks (smthng like four two hours classes + two full weekends). After such a course one would be able to solve a wide variety of resque in small group tasks (for sure, one needs to invest some time to practice self resque permanently, e.g., one night per month).

Another interesting fact is self-resque practice implies more effective rope systems management on long climbs (read: climb faster and safer). Basically such a practice makes climbers better.

Yep. But most are too dumb to actually put the small amount of time and effort in. Humans are dumb and climbers are no exception

Pavel Burov wrote:

Every time I see a picture like this or anybody belaying two followers from a belay plate I ask the following question.

Let's consider the following scenario. The second fall and dislodge an ankle. She is hanging on her rope and cannot unweight it. The third is 15 or 20 feet below her and cannot move because the belay plate is locked. Do you know how to resque your followers? Have you ever practiced this scenario?

I'm not sure what belay device you're using but I'm not sure what you mean with the belay plate being locked. With the DMM Pivot I'm always able to take in slack, even if the other rope is weighted. So the third could just climb up to the second in this scenario.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

With the DMM Pivot I'm always able to take in slack, even if the other rope is weighted.

That's interesting. Could you please demonstrate it (e.g., shoot a vid) belaying from an anchor?

Pavel Burov wrote:

Every time I see a picture like this or anybody belaying two followers from a belay plate I ask the following question.

Let's consider the following scenario. The second fall and dislodge an ankle. She is hanging on her rope and cannot unweight it. The third is 15 or 20 feet below her and cannot move because the belay plate is locked. Do you know how to resque your followers? Have you ever practiced this scenario?

Use a Kong Gigi or Camp Ovo and it will not lock the second rope

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I'm not sure what belay device you're using but I'm not sure what you mean with the belay plate being locked. With the DMM Pivot I'm always able to take in slack, even if the other rope is weighted. So the third could just climb up to the second in this scenario.

Exactly.  No different on the Reverso / ATC Guide or any other "guide-mode" tube-style belay device.  Rope can be taken in on either strand even if one is "locked".  The loaded rope strand jams its own brake side.  It's not a function of the belay device or its orientation, so the unloaded second rope can continue to be taken in.

edited for clarity

It seems this thread has been revived a couple times already.  Planning on doing the same with my post.

I climb a lot in three people party sometimes belaying both followers at the same time or sometimes just making the second tie in with two ropes and tag the line up.

Now there is another method that I have used on easy terrain: I bring a single rope and tie the second and the 3rd  relatively close to each other (20ft or so)  I basically have both followers simul climb.  Has anybody use this method? 

Luis Armando Gil wrote: It seems this thread has been revived a couple times already.  Planning on doing the same with my post.

I climb a lot in three people party sometimes belaying both followers at the same time or sometimes just making the second tie in with two ropes and tag the line up.

Now there is another method that I have used on easy terrain: I bring a single rope and tie the second and the 3rd  relatively close to each other (20ft or so)  I basically have both followers simul climb.  Has anybody use this method? 

I've used this method before and it works well. It can be just as fast as a 2 person team. It's a good idea to have the weakest climber in the middle. A fall from the climber at the end of the rope would pull the middle person off the wall as well (same idea as simul climbing). If the middle climber falls it would not affect the climber at the end of the rope, given there is enough space between the two. 

Two ropes at a belay with three people can get messy. 

If you would like to learn to move quickly as a party of three, hire a rock guide and request that instruction specifically. AMGA certified rock guides are essentially trained to climb in parties of 3 efficiently and can give you the strong technical skill set required to enjoy and even prefer a party of 3. 

Grab a copy of The Mountain Guide Manual---there's a ton of information on several ways to climb in parties of three, as well as bunches of information on how to manage ropes in parties of 3. Takes a bit of practice, but with some coaching, you can send it. Get dialed with your rope management and you can climb as faster, or faster, than a party of 2 that's less organized. Or hire a certified rock guide---s/he'll show you the way! RC

The double ropes is a good method in my opinion.

But inch-worming up with a third on a second rope is insanely slow and inefficient. It's bad enough to go three-up on a trade route, but using the slowest method possible is extremely inconsiderate. 

coppolillo wrote:Get dialed with your rope management and you can climb as faster, or faster, than a party of 2 that's less organized.

Or faster than a mildly organized party of two on a long route. If rotating leads as a threesome, no need to hold up the next pitch’s lead to eat, drink, nap and pee.

Charlie Hartman wrote:

I've used this method before and it works well. It can be just as fast as a 2 person team. It's a good idea to have the weakest climber in the middle. A fall from the climber at the end of the rope would pull the middle person off the wall as well (same idea as simul climbing). If the middle climber falls it would not affect the climber at the end of the rope, given there is enough space between the two. 

Two ropes at a belay with three people can get messy. 

This  is easily mitigated by tying in with a bight 2 to 3 feet long. This gives the second approximately 4 to 6 feet of independence from the third.  Just make sure the bight is not longer than the second’s reach.  Otherwise the knot will jam into protection before one is able to remove it. . 

End-roping (tying two people to the end of one rope in some configuration), caterpillar style (leader trails one rope, 1st follower comes up trailing another rope, then 2nd follower comes up once the 1st follower is at the top belay), and parallel (two followers climb simultaneously), all have their place, with pros and cons. Let the route/terrain dictate the technique....

My experience with party of 3: Last weekend in Whitney portal climbed the Becky Route as a party of 3. First time dealing with 2 others where a rope wasn’t fixed at a belay for one person to TR solo. Belayed both through one ATC in guide mode. It was a real fucking task to keep both ropes under tension, but it wasn’t so bad. Best way IMHO to climb with 3 is for the leader to climb up with 2 ropes and fix 1 of them. 

Pavel Burov wrote:

Every time I see a picture like this or anybody belaying two followers from a belay plate I ask the following question.

Let's consider the following scenario. The second fall and dislodge an ankle. She is hanging on her rope and cannot unweight it. The third is 15 or 20 feet below her and cannot move because the belay plate is locked. Do you know how to resque your followers? Have you ever practiced this scenario?

You just outlined the premise of the AMGA rock guide rescue drill. Quick you have 50 minutes!

Oh, and buy a Gigi....you'll thank yourself!

Professor Snax wrote: But inch-worming up with a third on a second rope is insanely slow and inefficient. It's bad enough to go three-up on a trade route, but using the slowest method possible is extremely inconsiderate. 

Not if the party of 3 knows what they're doing and are efficient. We once passed not one but two parties of two on the Regular Route on Fairview Dome - yes, using the inchworm method. And we slept in and started at noon-ish. 

We had our systems dialed.

So long as time and rope length isn't an issue. Then let follower #1 tie into an alpine butterfly as long as the half way point hasnt been passed.

The assumption that a group of 3 is inherently slower is easy to make, but it just isn't true. I've been in a party of 4 that passed two parties of two on complete Dark Shadows, it is possible to move fast in a larger party. Speed while multi-pitch climbing is a function of station set-up, rope management and efficient lead changes. To echo Rob, using the right technique for the terrain is crucial; end-rope, parallel and caterpillar all have ideal applications. Learning these and how to transition quickly between them is key to enjoying climbing with 3.

The practice of fixing one belay line for the 2nd or 3rd to microtrac does not strike me as the optimal solution for any route. Buy a GiGi and you'll be able to keep up with to followers much easier than with an ATC guide, Reverso or Megajul.