Reminder of the importance of checking systems

Mark E Dixon wrote: Question for Nick and Curt86- do you guys project much?
Is your understanding of the meaning of "in direct" related to your regional location or more to your trad predilections?
Amongst the people I know here in the Front Range, typically experienced sport climbers, "in direct" NEVER means off belay.

regardless of what im climbing, i never tell my belayer "in direct". its just not necessary. you're right, i don't project much, so maybe this has to do with the climbing myself and my partners do.

i agree that, when stated, "in direct" should never mean "off belay." i guess i'm more of the opinion you really don;t need to tell a belayer "in direct" even when projecting...but to each his own. i suppose, at the end of the day, the absolute most important factor is you and your belayer are 100% on the same page...

Mark I get what you guys think it means but in reality its an opertunity for your belayer to relax and shoot the shit with the hot  whichever sex interests them. Its simply not nessicary and just one more opportunity to Fck up and die.  people have been killed with that term.  Its certainly more dangerous in a lowering scenario  but if you use it at all the lines get blurred. Your  absolutely telling them to take a break and stop paying attention  to you. If they were paying attention in the first place they would know that you are in direct and that they can put on that extra jacket or whatever but still can't let go of the belay end of the rope. 

Belaying is just like fishing. you should be able to know exactly what is happening at any given moment just by the feel of the line. Isa and I have been climbing partners for over 21 years. hardly any verbal communication about belaying. more often cragging its hand signals. big stuff Its systems. we always do it the same way so when there is no chance of communication we still know what is happening. 

FrankPS wrote: "Check your safety!" I learned that from the instructional movie, Vertical Limit.

Frank has jokes!?!?  When did this start?

Marc H wrote:

Frank has jokes!?!?  When did this start?

It is extremely sophisticated humor that flies over the head of your average schlub. It has been available to the public for years, Marc.

Smoke pot and check your knot. At least that's what the Linders always used to say. So I do.  On the other hand,  If you are self repelling a  single pitch route you just climbed, get a damm job and buy a new rope. I am sick and tired of you cheap ass idiots hitting the deck and making people think sport climbing is dangerous. While most climbing might just be, sport climbing is only dangerous for idiots and people climbing on 1/4 smc bolts, and then, you are probably having a great time so carry on.  (Edit, if you're sport climbing on anything other than a Gri, you're probably sketchy as hell, and if you are self repelling a sport route you are most likely not climbing sport but rather chuffing)

@Nick- we seem to be at an impasse.
I find the phrase “in direct” useful and safe when used amongst my partners.

I appreciate you making it clear that others (mis)use the term and will be aware if I climb with strangers.

Hand signals are great too, but need an understanding between belayer and climber that comes with time spent climbing together.
My friends and I use them frequently.
My wife and I, even more so. 

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Do you project much?

Rahat A wrote:

Not going to try and misrepresent your statement so I'll just state my perspective. The more simple the system, the easier it is to check. Also, the more simple the system, the less things there are potentially to check. However, every system still needs to be checked.

I'd agree with that.

Excuse my ignorance, but things might be a little different down here in South Australia in regards to commands etc.  When you say "in direct" are you communicating that you are attached to the anchor you have set up?  Down here we normally shout "safe", which means you can be taken off belay.

Carl Schneider wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but things might be a little different down here in South Australia in regards to commands etc.  When you say "in direct" are you communicating that you are attached to the anchor you have set up?  Down here we normally shout "safe", which means you can be taken off belay.

^^^This. See the problem, Mark (not to single you out as a person, just your argument). Like you, I almost always climb with the same people and we are on the same page. But there is sometimes a friend, aquaintance, new pair, some cool people you meet on a trip, whatever have you. I assess how competent they are. Say you are high up on you proj and you go in direct (which is fine) and yell down 'in direct.' The new person that happens to be from AUS smiles and takes you off..... That doesn't mean they are an idiot or incompetent, although I think that is a bad thing to say and much better is 'off belay.'

In my experience (almost 3 decades) I have absolutely heard 'I'm safe' 'I'm in' and 'in direct' to MEAN 'off belay.' I think mostly in the multipitch areas of the west like Red Rock, Lumpy, NM, etc, so being from that region doesn't make one immune. I don't like it myself, and you might think the belayer is an idiot, but it is you that might die. Maybe some less experienced folks are climbing next to you and see you working your proj and adopt the 'in direct' and it might have dire consequences with their future parners, etc.

These were the types of arguments that I had with my friend (I had your current position) that eventually led to me trying to stop saying it.

Again, no offence to you as a person, just trying to have a healthy debate.

And yes, I project much. In fact everything I climb seems like a proj! I think I have said in direct on every Rifle 5.12 I have tried BITD. I caught myself saying it last year in Finale Ligure. It's very useful and seems obvious to me, but I don't want to die over something so simple to correct.

Now if I could only get into the habit of always knotting the free end of my rope on single-pitch routes...
Stay solid,
Joe

This is how I would characterize the issue (at least in the Front Range, maybe across the US.)

There are basic commands that every climber should use and understand.
The definitions should be exact and fixed.
These are commands such as "on belay", "slack", "tension", etc.

There are more nuanced commands that are useful in selected settings.
These have developed organically and have not been incorporated into standard teaching yet.
I would include "in direct", "back on you", and "dirt me" to all belong to this second group.
FWIW, I think there is also a distinct difference between "take" and "TAKE!!!!"

As you and Nick point out, there is a risk in using these phrases with climbers who may be unfamiliar with them or who may have a different understanding of their meanings.
Whether that risk is sufficient to outweigh the usefulness of the phrases in the proper setting is a judgment call for each climber, sort of like whether or not to wear a helmet.

One last tangential point- there is almost NEVER any excuse for a belayer to take his/her climber off belay at a single pitch sport crag.
The thought that such a climber would ever mean "off belay", no matter what he/she says, should be ruthlessly stamped out.

Dude,  you  can think it  means anything you want  but the fact of the  matter is you are telling your  belayer that you are in  direct and  they are no  longer  needed.  That's just  simple  human nature.  Tell  someone that they are not  needed and they will  focus on  something else which is  precisely why  people have been killed with this  terminology.  And  yes I have done  plenty of projecting in the past.  Equipped about 25 sport climbs.  bla. Bla. Whatever.   If you want to be on  belay  don't  give your  belayer any  excuses to  focus  somewhere else... if you  don't want to be on belay  say  off.  KISS 

Mark E Dixon wrote: This is how I would characterize the issue (at least in the Front Range, maybe across the US.)

There are basic commands that every climber should use and understand.
The definitions should be exact and fixed.
These are commands such as "on belay", "slack", "tension", etc.

There are more nuanced commands that are useful in selected settings.
These have developed organically and have not been incorporated into standard teaching yet.
I would include "in direct", "back on you", and "dirt me" to all belong to this second group.
FWIW, I think there is also a distinct difference between "take" and "TAKE!!!!"

As you and Nick point out, there is a risk in using these phrases with climbers who may be unfamiliar with them or who may have a different understanding of their meanings.
Whether that risk is sufficient to outweigh the usefulness of the phrases in the proper setting is a judgment call for each climber, sort of like whether or not to wear a helmet.

One last tangential point- there is almost NEVER any excuse for a belayer to take his/her climber off belay at a single pitch sport crag.
The thought that such a climber would ever mean "off belay", no matter what he/she says, should be ruthlessly stamped out.

I would add that "off belay" should be the only command that means... off belay. IMO, there should be zero room for error on this one. 

I climb in a lot of places where single pitch sport and trad, and multipitch routes all exist at the same place, and I might do one of each on the same day. For that reason, I'd rather keep it simple by keeping the commands as minimal as possible. There's nothing wrong with your list of nuanced commands in those select settings you mention, but unfortunately those commands get misapplied all the time outside of those specific settings. It's a rare that I can go a day at the crag without hearing at least one belayer/leader shout fest because they're each not sure what the other means. Even if it doesn't end in an accident, all the shouting and confusion is unpleasant for everyone else around them. As crags get more crowded, all the noise pollution gets to be a real drag. Of course, none of that is the fault of the commands themselves.

My preferred commands are all pretty simple and direct in meaning. So long as you speak English, they should span regional dialect and require no deciphering of what the leader means.
off belay = take me off belay
tension = give me rope tension. "Take" can sound an awful lot like "slack" when it's windy and there's some distance between you. And "tension" is the actual word that means what you want.
slack = give me some slack
lower = lower me
clipping = give me 2 armlengths of slack quickly. I rarely say this, but it has it's uses for dicey clips when your belayer might not be able to see you.

I might say "watch me" when climbing with a new partner that I don't fully trust yet, but ideally it shouldn't be necessary.

 

Mark E Dixon wrote:
I'm guessing you don't like the phrase "back on you" either?

Neither like nor dislike. I don't know what it means though it sounds nasty.

I support Tradiban: no yelling at Tahquitz! Seriously, no need. Figure it out. Few weeks ago heard someone said the following when they reached tree P1 Fingertrip:
In direct (indirect?!?; I don't know. I don't know what that means).
Standby (Wtf)
Off belay

I could be wrong, standby might have come last.

amarius wrote: But, "keep me on" is a bit perplexing - keep you on what? - the rope? Command "take" sounds distinctive is not ambiguous, commands belayer to take it slack and keep climber tight, everyone knows it.
 

When did "take" become a thing replacing "tension" or "falling"?. In August of 1990, I was belaying a partner who was leading and  shouted "take". I didn't know what she meant and I couldn't see her, but since the rope started moving fast through my belay device, I went into braking mode. When she stopped, she started screaming at me as to why I didn't "take.": I asked her what that meant. Seemed like it was a new fangled term for "tension" or maybe even "falling", which had been used for years. I thought that since she had just returned from a climbing trip to France, it was a translation of prend! , which French climbers had been using. 

But times and language change. If I climb with young climbers these days, I tell them that if an old climber says "tension", he means "take". 

Joe Prescott wrote:

^^^This. See the problem, Mark (not to single you out as a person, just your argument). Like you, I almost always climb with the same people and we are on the same page. But there is sometimes a friend, aquaintance, new pair, some cool people you meet on a trip, whatever have you. I assess how competent they are. Say you are high up on you proj and you go in direct (which is fine) and yell down 'in direct.' The new person that happens to be from AUS smiles and takes you off..... That doesn't mean they are an idiot or incompetent, although I think that is a bad thing to say and much better is 'off belay.'

In my experience (almost 3 decades) I have absolutely heard 'I'm safe' 'I'm in' and 'in direct' to MEAN 'off belay.' I think mostly in the multipitch areas of the west like Red Rock, Lumpy, NM, etc, so being from that region doesn't make one immune. I don't like it myself, and you might think the belayer is an idiot, but it is you that might die. Maybe some less experienced folks are climbing next to you and see you working your proj and adopt the 'in direct' and it might have dire consequences with their future parners, etc.

These were the types of arguments that I had with my friend (I had your current position) that eventually led to me trying to stop saying it.

Again, no offence to you as a person, just trying to have a healthy debate.

And yes, I project much. In fact everything I climb seems like a proj! I think I have said in direct on every Rifle 5.12 I have tried BITD. I caught myself saying it last year in Finale Ligure. It's very useful and seems obvious to me, but I don't want to die over something so simple to correct.

Now if I could only get into the habit of always knotting the free end of my rope on single-pitch routes...
Stay solid,
Joe

So is that a 'yes' you're attached to the anchor and can be taken off belay? Normally the next thing to occur would be the leader taked in slack.... 

Carl Schneider wrote:

So is that a 'yes' you're attached to the anchor and can be taken off belay? Normally the next thing to occur would be the leader taked in slack.... 

Not quite sure what you are asking Carl, but in single pitch sport climbing, barring very unusual circumstances, the leader should never be taken off belay. 

Carl Schneider wrote:

So is that a 'yes' you're attached to the anchor and can be taken off belay? Normally the next thing to occur would be the leader taked in slack.... 

No, "In-direct" is usually used in a sport climbing context let the belayer know you are attached to a bolt and they can relax physically (i.e. they are not holding your weight) until you are ready to start climbing again. Some people may use it to mean the same as "Safe" or "Secure" or otherwise "Off-belay" which is the unambiguous command.

Personally I also stay away from "Safe" or "Secure" because it doesn't tell the belay an action, and too often people use it to communicate that they are at an anchor, yet do not want to be taken "Off".