Using rabbit runners to make alpine draws

Do you use "rabbit runners" (single-strand runners with sewn or tied eyes on each end) to make "alpine" draws for on-harness racking?

If not, stop reading and close this thread. Do not make a reply.

If yes, what soft gear do you use to make them? Do you use accessory cord? Do you use tied nylon webbing? Do you use a sewn rabbit runner? Something else?

Eli W wrote: Anybody use "rabbit runners" (single-strand runners with sewn or tied eyes on each end) to make "alpine" draws for on-harness racking? If so, what soft gear do you use to make them?

I noticed that BD started making a sewn 110cm one in 13mm dyneema rated at 22kN eye-to-eye:

Those would be ideal, price aside. It would be cheaper to use tied cord or nylon webbing, although this would yield a lower breaking strength, but probably still enough for trad pro clipping.

I'm a bit confused as to what your actual question is, but I'll do my best. 

: It seems like the question being asked by your words is "what soft gear do you use to make alpine draws from rabbit runners?"
Answer: The soft gear would be the rabbit runner.

Question: Would tied cord or nylon webbing be enough for trad pro clipping?
Answer: Yes.

The rest just seems like you're doing an impromptu advert for Bdel's rabbit runner (which is exactly the same as everyone else's rabbit runners that have been available for decades)

If your question was "How do you make an alpine draw from a rabbit runner?"
Then, you take both eyes and connect them to one carabiner, you take the loop on the other end and connect that to the other carabiner, then pass the 2nd carabiner through the 1st carabiner and clip the created loops just like making a normal alpine draw from a sewn sling of whatever material.

Sorry, did my best.

kevin deweese wrote:

I'm a bit confused as to what your actual question is, but I'll do my best. 

Question: It seems like the question being asked by your words is "what soft gear do you use to make alpine draws from rabbit runners?"
Answer: The soft gear would be the rabbit runner.

Question: Would tied cord or nylon webbing be enough for trad pro clipping?
Answer: Yes.

The rest just seems like you're doing an impromptu advert for Bdel's rabbit runner (which is exactly the same as everyone else's rabbit runners that have been available for decades)

If your question was "How do you make an alpine draw from a rabbit runner?"
Then, you take both eyes and connect them to one carabiner, you take the loop on the other end and connect that to the other carabiner, then pass the 2nd carabiner through the 1st carabiner and clip the created loops just like making a normal alpine draw from a sewn sling of whatever material.

Sorry, did my best.

kevin deweese wrote:

I'm a bit confused as to what your actual question is, but I'll do my best. 

The questions on are the first line of my post.

Eli W wrote:

The questions on are the first line of my post.

To answer your first question, then: "No."

I've edited the post to aid in clarity.

Rabbit runners have a special place in climbing. Usually at the bottom of that  box of shit you wasted your money on. 

Dunder . wrote: Rabbit runners have a special place in climbing. Usually at the bottom of that  box of shit you wasted your money on. 

I'm not sure I have any more room in that box...

Why don't you like them? It seems like they could cut down on the bulk and fiddly-ness of alpine draws or shoulder slings.

The lack of versatility you get vs regular shoulder slings would be my primary concern.

I recently picked up a few of the BD rabbit runners to use on some snow pickets. I've also taken them out trad climbing and liked them enough. They're more compact and easier to carry than the double-length nylon slings I have and are slightly easier to double up when you only need a single length extension. Not sure I'd recommend buying any more than 3 or 4 of them unless you have a specific application in mind as they're not quite as useful as a standard single length alpine draw when it comes to clipping nuts or bolts/pins. 

Original Post:

Eli W wrote:
Anybody use "rabbit runners" (single-strand runners with sewn or tied eyes on each end) to make "alpine" draws for on-harness racking? If so, what soft gear do you use to make them?

I noticed that BD started making a sewn 110cm one in 13mm dyneema rated at 22kN eye-to-eye:

Those would be ideal, price aside. It would be cheaper to use tied cord or nylon webbing, although this would yield a lower breaking strength, but probably still enough for trad pro clipping. 

Edited Post:

Eli W wrote: Do you use "rabbit runners" (single-strand runners with sewn or tied eyes on each end) to make "alpine" draws for on-harness racking?

If not, stop reading and close this thread. Do not make a reply.

If yes, what soft gear do you use to make them? Do you use accessory cord? Do you use tied nylon webbing? Do you use a sewn rabbit runner? Something else?

Even better:

Eli W wrote:
The questions on are the first line of my post.

Lol, first line of which post? Your first post or your edited post. I'll assume the first post since your edited post doesn't have questions, only a question.

but I don't want to stop reading or close this thread so I'll answer your edited post's first line question.

Yes. 

Poor Eli.  Internetting is difficult.

John Orndorff wrote: I contacted Metolius, and they sold me a few of the dogbones from their 12" Bravo II Long Draws (since I already had the carabiners).

This seems like a more useful option for my needs. I rarely want >100cm/3ft extension. Do you find that 12" is long enough for extending gear? Seems a bit short, especially for passive gear.

kevin deweese wrote: Original Post:Edited Post:

Even better:

Lol, first line of which post? Your first post or your edited post. I'll assume the first post since your edited post doesn't have questions, only a question.

but I don't want to stop reading or close this thread so I'll answer your edited post's first line question.

Yes. 

damn you got me

Eli W wrote:

Why don't you like them? It seems like they could cut down on the bulk and fiddly-ness of alpine draws or shoulder slings.

The BD sewn rabbit runner (110 cm) is 35g and $18.  A BD dynex shoulder sling (120 cm) is 39g and $15.  So, as far as bulk, I think they're about the same, if you assume that the same weight is about the same bulk.  Since you make alpine draws the same way (make loop, pass one carabiner through the other, etc.), they seem equally fiddly too?

I thought they were a cool idea initially, but I'm not so convinced they add value over 120cm slings.  I'd love to hear what I'm missing!

I do use (longer, dyneema/nylon blend) rabbit runners for anchor building, like the Mountain Tools web-o-lette, but that's quite a different application.  Arguably a quad sling is just as good here too...

Kyle Tarry wrote: I thought they were a cool idea initially, but I'm not so convinced they add value over 120cm slings.  I'd love to hear what I'm missing!

I do use (longer, dyneema/nylon blend) rabbit runners for anchor building, like the Mountain Tools web-o-lette, but that's quite a different application.  Arguably a quad sling is just as good here too...

I find them worthless as an extension sling for a piece while climbing because they're just too long (maybe for those weird super long draws on overhanging sport projects that mutants do these days)

But I have a bunch of the Yates rabbit runners (which are longer than the Bdel rabbit runner) and now a couple of the bdel rabbit runners.  The longer yates are fantastic for building anchors and the bdels are also useful for building an anchor between two points that are very close together (like two close bolts) or for connecting two marginal pieces to form one of the legs of a larger trad anchor. Generally you can get the equivalent of a longer looped sling without any of the extra "weight" or fiddling with the looped ends. All in all I'd say they are about 0.01% better than a normal sling. 

One minor issue is that they remove the possibility of using the shelf of your anchor because there's no shelf.

They have one serious failure mode though. If your partner is not used to using a rabbit runner and they like sliding X anchor setups, building a sliding X with a rabbit runner is going to create a catastrophic failure of the anchor if one of the legs blows. (I didn't even think about this until I climbed up to my partner's anchor back i the day and realized that one of their legs was a microcam beneath a suspect flake. I built a new anchor quickly and them showed them what would have happened had i fallen and the microcam blew. They were sufficiently convinced not to do that again.)

Thanks Kevin.  Sounds like you're using the Yates ones the same way I'm using the Mtn Tools ones, which are probably very similar in construction.

I do find that I need the full 48" of extension sometimes, especially on wandering alpine routes.  However, I just use a double sling for those, since I don't think the rabbit runners offer any benefit.

Eli W wrote:

I'm not sure I have any more room in that box...

Why don't you like them? It seems like they could cut down on the bulk and fiddly-ness of alpine draws or shoulder slings.

Tried them along time ago, Didn't really care for the. I prefer my traditional slings, especially for knobs and opposing nuts.

I don't use 4 foot rabbit runners because I haven't found much use for 4 foot runners in general. They are usually too long for extending pro and too short for building anchors. I like the idea that you can get them off your shoulder more easily in some circumstances by unclipping the carabiner and pulling it through.

On the other hand I have been curious about trying a 2 foot rabbit runner used as an alpine draw. My thought is that you could use a rubber keeper on the bottom carabiner like a Petzl "string" to keep it from flipping around in a fall. (If you use a keeper on a 2 foot loop runner there is a risk of clipping back through the loop and creating a catastrophic failure.) I also wonder if they would not get tangled the way alpine draws sometimes do when you go to extend them. However, I have not found anyone who makes a 2 foot rabbit though at least four companies make a 4 foot one.

I love rabbit runners! They are great on alpine, multi-pitch routes. If a meandering route with tricky protection is being contemplated, take some. Equalizing anchors gets way easier with R.R.'s. I remember an easy route in Eldo where I saw an odd looking pair of holes in front of me. I took a rabbit runner , threaded it thru one, and sure enough- it came out the other hole. Bomber protection. No worry about direction of pull. And they are great for knobs, horns, and lots of other situations that are to numerous to mention.

Kyle Tarry wrote: Thanks Kevin.  Sounds like you're using the Yates ones the same way I'm using the Mtn Tools ones, which are probably very similar in construction.

I do find that I need the full 48" of extension sometimes, especially on wandering alpine routes.  However, I just use a double sling for those, since I don't think the rabbit runners offer any benefit.

The benefit is in the decreased amount of material needed to complete the anchor (because the rabbit runner doesn't need twice the length of material). The anchor that you can build from a X" sling can be accomplished with a X/2" rabbit runner. Admittedly, for spectra/dyneema, the different in weight is negligible.