UIAA permits grigri tr brake hand slide.

Desert Rock Sports wrote: Slip slap slide may be "smooth" but its only designed to be used with the munter hitch. Some assisted breaking devices can be ok-ish with it depending on mechanism, but consult their literature.

Tube style devices (ATC, reverso, etc... teeth don't count as assisted breaking) should use PBUS. ...

PBUS is an acronym for i-am-a-gumby-and-i-am-gonna-drop-someone....

If it bothers you don't climb there plain and simple. I also hear opening your own gym is pretty hip now.

Jim Titt wrote: Cool, the UIAA only about 30 years behind the rest of the world.

& 30 years ahead of most American guides or American rock gyms.....we are in a little bubble. Black Diamond or some of the magazines/ websites would like you to think otherwise. 

Agreed about the USNWC and climbing so rediculous, I was told last year that grigris were not allowed because they breed complacency. If you are going to climb over there just DWS instead, way more fun.

roger fritz from rockford, IL wrote:

I would have encouraged him to seek training on the Cinch's proper use. 

I am not quite sure what the point of learning the proper use of Cinch is - Cinch has been out of production for quite a long time. Trango Vergo, the replacement device, has markings on the case that make improper use harder to ignore. Still, loading of Vergo is different from other ABD widely used - GriGri, Lifeguard, to name a couple; extra attention is definitely required. 

amarius wrote:

I am not quite sure what the point of learning the proper use of Cinch is - Cinch has been out of production for quite a long time. Trango Vergo, the replacement device, has markings on the case that make improper use harder to ignore. Still, loading of Vergo is different from other ABD widely used - GriGri, Lifeguard, to name a couple; extra attention is definitely required. 

I am sorry I didn’t make my point clear. What I meant to convey, within this conversation, is that if a person who is not familiar with any piece of gear that is going to be used, the wisest decision they can make is to not allow its use under their supervision.

Are there any actual studies comparing the relative safety of PBUS,  hand over hand and slide method?

If you look at Jim Titt's slides on braking force of various belay devices you will learn that the braking force of ATC like devices is proportional to the braking hands grip.  I am quite sure that no one using PBUS or hand over hand actually hold the rope in the brake hand with their maximum grip strength the entire time they are belaying.  If so they would be too pumped to climb.  So all 3 belay methods depend upon the belayer to react to the fall and apply their full grip strength to the rope.   paci.com.au/downloads_publi…

I suspect they are all similar.  I am happy with anyone belaying me using any of the 3 methods endorsed by Petzl in their videos as long as the belayer is attentive. petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belay…;Familly=Belay-devices-and-descenders

climber pat wrote: Are there any actual studies comparing the relative safety of PBUS,  hand over hand and slide method?

If you look at Jim Titt's slides on braking force of various belay devices you will learn that the braking force of ATC like devices is proportional to the braking hands grip.  I am quite sure that no one using PBUS or hand over hand actually hold the rope in the brake hand with their maximum grip strength the entire time they are belaying.  If so they would be too pumped to climb.  So all 3 belay methods depend upon the belayer to react to the fall and apply their full grip strength to the rope.   paci.com.au/downloads_publi…

I suspect they are all similar.  I am happy with anyone belaying me using any of the 3 methods endorsed by Petzl in their videos as long as the belayer is attentive. petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belay…;Familly=Belay-devices-and-descenders

Of course they don't, that's just, rubbish put about by promoters of one system, slide is the way most real climbers do it.

"UIAA Permits" ??? who cares what UIAA says about product uses?  Manufacturers recommendation is all that anyone should be interested in. 

Worth noting here (for posterity) that plenty of climbers both experienced and not are able to belay safely with the PBUS technique. Though it may not be the only safe way to belay, I think demonizing it as a sign of inexperience or incompetence is silly.

Being forced to use it (in gyms) is another thing but Tammy said it well--"If you want gyms to exist, you have to accept a system of rules..."

**NO SPRAY PLEASE, I HAVE TWO BELAY CARDS**

Aidan Raviv wrote:**NO SPRAY PLEASE, I HAVE TWO BELAY CARDS**

Only counts if you wear them proudly to your local crag...

curt86iroc wrote:

Only counts if you wear them proudly to your local crag...

The helmet @ the sport crag is a worse transgression then the belay card!

Aidan Raviv wrote: 
**NO SPRAY PLEASE, I HAVE TWO BELAY CARDS**

Only two?! That’s, like, so 2010!