Misogynistic and problematic route names in rock climbing

mc reefcrank wrote:

Rock Monkey,

OK so what about cultural context; there is a crag in Taiwan called Long Dong, which does not refer to the slang used in English. Would this be a trigger?

Really? So if I'm in the cultural context, that would be something akin to "Long Comprehension". Yep, that might trigger me into deep thought but probably not as I'm trying to cling to rock and have yet to ever have a route name smack my frontal lobe while on a climb. I tend to focus on where the hell my fingers and toes are going, but hey, that's me. Also, having been married to a Chinese wanton lady for 14 years, I think I got the context correct but I may be off. I'm still just a white guy. Now if I'm horny and homosexual, I suppose given the right humidity level as I approach Long Dong... I could be triggered. I'm heterosexual with an average penis size so I don't think I'd really be triggered by Long Dong but I'd probably start yelling Long Duk Dong quotes while on the route. SEXY GIRLFRIEND!!!!

mc reefcrank wrote:

Rock Monkey,

OK so what about cultural context; there is a crag in Taiwan called Long Dong, which does not refer to the slang used in English. Would this be a trigger?

When I went through basic training circa 1986, we had a Vietnamese immigrant in our platoon whose name was Pha Qu.

I recall a couple of drill instructors found that name to be provocatively entertaining.

Meanwhile, consider the social engineering aspects of demanding routes be renamed to suit cultural Newspeakism:

"Those who control the past control the future
 Those who control the present, control the past"
--George Orwell

Who controlled the Gulags where Aleksandr Solzhenyiitsen was sent for writing a letter containing language that was unflattering to the organized criminal state establishment?  Organized Criminals like Simeon Mogelevich and his laundry boy (((D)))onaldo the Maganificent did, that's who.

Shall we all be silent and politically, correctly, obedient to whatever standard the popular herd dictates... whilst burning down the village, AGAIN?

"The fire is in the minds of men, not on the roofs of houses"
--Fyodor Dostoyevsky
--"The Possessed"

RockMonkey -I was not thinking of you being triggered in a homoerotic sense, although if that gets you through the night its none of my phucking biz, my thoughts were more out of concern for those who prefer to wear comfortable shoes, a crag name like this might cause deep discomfort, so to speak...

Lots of men confidently proclaiming that misogynistic route names aren't a problem.....  

Dylan Colon wrote:

As far as the free speech argument goes, I'd counter that while a first ascensionist has the right to choose whatever name they want, no one is compelled to repeat or print it. In 99.9% of cases, there's no conflict there and people will follow the FA.

Well said. 

As a possible compromise, what would people think if route names could be voted on to be hidden on MP? What I have in mind is something like this:

Click on the route name - takes you to the route's page. In the same space where you can 'Add New Tick' or 'Add To-Do', MP could offer the option to vote to hide name or leave it in the open. With a majority voting to hide the name, the name would then appear in the area's list of routes as Hidden by Community 5.9+, and the same on the route's page.

However, on the route's page there would be a link or drop down that would show the original name for anyone that wants to see it by clicking on it. If you click on a hidden name and don't think it is offensive you can vote to bring it back out. Stats on the voting could be shown, which might serve to help inform people on where the community's boundaries are. Voting would be anonymous, but you only get one vote per route, which you could reverse at a later time if you want, and back again too.

Searching for the route name would still honor the original name even if it is a hidden name, but on the page it would still be called Hidden by Community.

If you vote to hide, it hides it for you, and in the area list and on the route page it would say Hidden by You 5.9+. That way even if the community doesn't hide it, at least you don't have to look at it any more. And you could print it that way and still go have a nice climb on it without the reminder of what it was called.

Maybe a route with a highly down-voted name (>80% or something) could prompt a contact to the FA (if possible) to see if they would be willing to change it. Odds are they wouldn't, but maybe a few would.

Result: Concerned people more protected. History preserved.

Not perfect, but I could live with this.

Things I like about the idea:

Anyone determined to hide names would still have to visit every offending route page to cast their vote.
Nobody could single handedly hide a route.
It is community self-policing - not done by committee.
Shows sensitivity to people with those kinds of concerns, and their vote is honored no matter what within their own MP space.
Preserves the history for anyone willing to look.
Honors the FA's right to name by preserving the name, although possibly hidden.
Helps delineate community standards.
Has potential to influence future FAs' naming habits by making the boundaries of acceptable/unacceptable more apparent.
Would allow us to roll up our constitutions and our free speech arguments and our name calling and our offense and instead actually do something practical about concerns that have weight to some people and not to others, regardless of which side you are on philosophically.

Brother Numsie wrote:

By creating a organization of criminal predators.

Anniversary of Ruby Ridge today.
 

Pretty much all that needs to be said 

wow, someone remembered Ruby Ridge anniversary...

Just to reiterate popular doesn’t mean right. Nazi germany had the popular vote. What you’re discussing here is the climbing community which is a group of various involvement has decided to infringe on others rights. It is a very old tradition that a person committed to put in their time and money to develop a route has the right and privilege to name it. We can not rewrite history but it sure looks like we are trying to. This if you disagree you must be wrong mentality is sad and not very open minded. People are going to be offended by anything these days. I’m sure I could name a route hotdog and some short purple haired youth with a ring through their nose would have a problem with it because they are vegan. Climbing is dirty dangerous and fun let’s leave it that way. 

djh860 wrote:

Groups of people who naturally gather together deserve the right to be who they are .

Even if they are being cruel to another group?

Above I made a proposal for how MP could deal with the offensive names issue. I started a new thread with the proposal here.

Roy Suggett wrote:

Even if they are being cruel to another group?

"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me"

Back when I learned that in kindergarten, circa 1966, the civil rights movement was in full swing.

Folks had different priorities...and character.

its sad to see how easily the herd is distracted by being "offended", today... As their eyeballs are glued to technocratic gadgets manufactured with rare Earth's mined by slave labor.

I notice that most of the posters on this thread are men... but as a relatively new climber, and woman, may I say that I love the names of routes, and the wilder and more offensive, the funnier they are to me.  Of course, I haven't seen 'the list'.  But I have visited some routes that have me busting up with laughter before I even start climbing.  That can't be bad.  

Lori Milas wrote: I notice that most of the posters on this thread are men... but as a relatively new climber, and woman, may I say that I love the names of routes, and the wilder and more offensive, the funnier they are to me.  Of course, I haven't seen 'the list'.  But I have visited some routes that have me busting up with laughter before I even start climbing.  That can't be bad.  

I actually think its more of an age divide then a gender divide. People that were aware in the 60's and 70's tend to be less..ah..uptight about PC things.

Offended that others are offended by offensive names.  PC climbing only.  Lets call routes names like, Group Hug, Snuggle, Teddy Bears Picnic, Soft and Easy, Daffodil, Spooning, 7th Grade Slow Dance, etc. 

Roy Suggett wrote:

Even if they are being cruel to another group?

Spare me.

Eric wrote: Climbing is like tattoos

Once upon a time, tattoos signaled counter-culture toughness, i.e., prison, blue-collar work, bike gang, etc.  Now, tattoos are just as likely to signal that you just wrote a poem about your vegan bicycle.

Once upon a time, climbing was a counter-culture, rebellious adventure, with few rules and social norms.  Now, climbing is just as likely to signal that you just wrote a poem about your vegan bicycle.

Where can I get this vegan bicycle? 

Asking for a friend.

Just call the route something else. If you climb long enough, you'll forget most of the route names anyway. The names are temporary. Ultimately, so are the rocks.

I have to say, much as the search for micro infractions is wearisome, the over reaction against the oh-so-awful PC behavior is just as (if not more) annoying. Oh no, somebody asked you not to be an insensitive, uninsightful dumbass! It's like y'all have to publically pledge allegiance to being a regular old fart laying American (NTTAWWT).

William Burke wrote:

"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me"

Back when I learned that in kindergarten, circa 1966, the civil rights movement was in full swing.

Folks had different priorities...and character.

its sad to see how easily the herd is distracted by being "offended", today... As their eyeballs are glued to technocratic gadgets manufactured with rare Earth's mined by slave labor.

I'm older than you. 

The kids in my neighborhood still picked who would go first with this:

"Eenie, meanie, minie, Moe,
Catch a nigger by the toe.
If he hollers, make him pay
Fifty dollars every day...."

And on from there.

Until the day my mom, from Little Rock Arkansas no less, gave us hell and told us if she ever heard that again, we'd be in deep, deep, trouble.

And yes, I heard the same words don't hurt crap, including on this site every time the subject comes up.

Words do matter. Please don't forget how hard those fights were, back then. Shifting speech reflects shifting attitudes and general values, and became part of not just civil behaviour but the law. There is a huge difference between seventh grade locker humor and hate speech that is directed at someone. Sometimes, these route names need the backstory, too. That, is what I hope will be preserved, the stories, when they exist. They aren't always what they seem at first reading.

Now? Those route names are becoming just words, from a different time. Part of our juvenile days, as climbers, but still our shared history. I'm fine with leaving names as is, for now. They will fall by the wayside eventually, as people choose to not use them.

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

I'm older than you. 

The kids in my neighborhood still picked who would go first with this:

"Eenie, meanie, minie, Moe,
Catch a nigger by the toe.
If he hollers, make him pay
Fifty dollars every day...."

And on from there.

Until the day my mom, from Little Rock Arkansas no less, gave us hell and told us if she ever heard that again, we'd be in deep, deep, trouble.

And yes, I heard the same words don't hurt crap, including on this site every time the subject comes up.

Words do matter. Please don't forget how hard those fights were, back then. Shifting speech reflects shifting attitudes and general values, and became part of not just civil behaviour but the law. There is a huge difference between seventh grade locker humor and hate speech that is directed at someone. Sometimes, these route names need the backstory, too. That, is what I hope will be preserved, the stories, when they exist. They aren't always what they seem at first reading.

Now? Those route names are becoming just words, from a different time. Part of our juvenile days, as climbers, but still our shared history. I'm fine with leaving names as is, for now. They will fall by the wayside eventually, as people choose to not use them.

Best, Helen

Helen... We may have found something we disagree on!  I was there, too, when that childhood poem was common. And yea, words matter.

So I don’t know WHY I make a personal exception in climbing. I enjoy the fun, the play and the humor of route names—and if they’re creative and not just adolescent smut, then I’m grateful for the smile. Hell, I want to climb all the Poodle routes in Josh just because they are great names.  And there’s a whole Nietzsche wall somewhere so there must be a philosopher/climber out there somewhere I’d like to meet.  
If a route name is insulting, demeaning, creepy or outright hostile maybe I’m wrong but I doubt many people would applaud it. Peer pressure would probably save the day.  

William Burke wrote:

Go try to give a house or a van you don't have clear title to away.

Then come back and tell us all how well that worked out.

And you STILL haven't explained what "NOTHING IS MORE CERTAINLY WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF FATE THAN THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE TO BE FREE" means... But don't feel too bad because (((D)))onaldo the Maganificent can't seem to figure out how those first principles of American government work, either!

Title can be transferred by means of a quitclaim deed without any warranty of title. Not much of a problem at all.

Your posts are borderline coherent. Neither I nor anyone else owes you any explanations.