Why is gym grading so soft?

I can barely haul myself up V3 outdoors, but in the gym I’m all of a sudden a V7 climber. How did this happen? Why do gyms tend to be softer graded? Is it ego? Style? It’s a mystery to me.

Bryn Owen wrote: I can barely haul myself up V3 outdoors, but in the gym I’m all of a sudden a V7 climber. How did this happen? Why do gyms tend to be softer graded? Is it ego? Style? It’s a mystery to me.

I wish my gym graded soft. I have the opposite issue. I climb at least a grade or two higher outside!

To fluff egos. Or in the case of spartan race bros, shoot them down.

Sounds like you're a V10 climber at Earth Treks!

Depends on the gym, but V0 outside is pretty stiff for a beginner - so, you'd need to shift the scale down to have a reasonable gym for everyone.  I find the route grades in my gym comparable, which makes sense since the YDS goes "lower" in terms of absolute move difficulty than the Hueco/Vermin scale.

because people won't pay if they get discouraged

spaceman laflare wrote:

yes, more “measurable” progression 

This doesn’t make sense.  This is more a factor of consistency than being stiff or soft; if all the 5.10bs feel like 5.9s outdoors and the 10cs feel like 10a, that’s fine.  What drives me nuts is when one asshole setter goes on an ego trip and sets a sandbag or (even worse) grades softly so that people will like their routes better.  Whatever they decide to do, they need to work it out and stick with it.  Most effective way of doing this seems to be community consensus grading...

As far as OP: yes, it’s a psychology thing.  People feel happy when they climb “harder” and want to return.

yeah I think sometimes the setters just make mistakes on their grading...

Ted Pinson wrote:

This doesn’t make sense.  This is more a factor of consistency than being stiff or soft; if all the 5.10bs feel like 5.9s outdoors and the 10cs feel like 10a, that’s fine.  What drives me nuts is when one asshole setter goes on an ego trip and sets a sandbag or (even worse) grades softly so that people will like their routes better.  Whatever they decide to do, they need to work it out and stick with it.  Most effective way of doing this seems to be community consensus grading...

As far as OP: yes, it’s a psychology thing.  People feel happy when they climb “harder” and want to return.

Thanks, I wish the grading system was a bit more universal. It’s like showing up to one place and the inch being shorter. Just confusing.

Bryn Owen wrote:

Thanks, I wish the grading system was a bit more universal. It’s like showing up to one place and the inch being shorter. Just confusing.

Don’t try to climb the grade, that’s impossible. Only try to realize the truth......that there are no grades.

Bryn Owen wrote:

Thanks, I wish the grading system was a bit more universal. It’s like showing up to one place and the inch being shorter. Just confusing.

Impossible. One cannot directly compare overhanging granite crack versus limestone slab. Basically there are three grades: I've sent it, I'm working on it, too hard to even try. Use those YDS/Fr/etc grades to estimate the neighboring route stiffness. And travel a lot to acquire as many styles as possible.

Bryn Owen wrote:

Thanks, I wish the grading system was a bit more universal. It’s like showing up to one place and the inch being shorter. Just confusing.

Hahaha! I wish the grading was more universal within a GYM, wishing for things across different gyms in crazy talk!

I live in my own personal gym-grade-distortion hell: right now, in the same section of the wall next to each other, there is a “12-“ that is a bit easier than “10+” (but at least I can still do the 10!), and an “11+” that is harder than both of them, not sure how much harder, because I’m not even close to making the moves. 

On a lead wall, same thing: “12-“ and “11” that are no different from each other, and both way easier than “11-“ that I can’t do yet, but it is just one long move that I think I can eventually get. And two “11” and “11+” each that have multiple impossible moves. 

Right next to these is a “5.10” that feels like 5.7, except you would never find a route this overhanging in the 5.7 range, “5.10” that feels like 5.9, and “5.10-“ that feels like 5.10. 

Tell me again about this mythical thing called consistency. I like to dream sometimes... and no, consensus grading won’t help, most people seem to agree with the grades as given, maybe move it by 1+/-  

Depends on the gym. 

Dan Cooksey wrote:

Don’t try to climb the grade, that’s impossible. Only try to realize the truth......that there are no grades.

Dude!  For the fecking WIN!

Best post on MP in my 9 month time here!

Lena chita wrote:

Hahaha! I wish the grading was more universal within a GYM, wishing for things across different gyms in crazy talk!

Ha-ha. When I had been living in the U.S. it was like "gym on-sight grade = outside best RP grade". Here in Russia it is more like "the best gym PR grade = outside flash/on-sight grade". Remember that first indoors gym session when I failed at "warm-up" 6b+ (5.10d) :) It was a good lesson to learn: inspect holds and moves before jumping on a route. And don't bother 'bout grades.

P.S. I would say the second approach is kinda safer for newbies making gym to crag transition.

Relevant Power Company podcast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VLaz030q4

Basically some people climb better in the gym, some climb better outside. It really depends on how much of each you do. If you climb 3 days a week in the gym and 1 outside, your're probably going to be a lot better at pulling plastic than you are at standing on tiny little granite chips. Similarly, if you climb a lot of limestone sport climbs, granite slab is going to feel brutal.

Ted Pinson wrote:

What drives me nuts is when one asshole setter goes on an ego trip and sets a sandbag or (even worse) grades softly so that people will like their routes better.  Whatever they decide to do, they need to work it out and stick with it.

This, to me, seems like a head setter not doing their job to ensure grades are consistent throughout the gym. At my gym the head setter climbs each route after they are set and discusses changes and the grade with the setter. It seems to do a good job.

Nathan Sullivan wrote: Depends on the gym, but V0 outside is pretty stiff for a beginner - so, you'd need to shift the scale down to have a reasonable gym for everyone.  I find the route grades in my gym comparable, which makes sense since the YDS goes "lower" in terms of absolute move difficulty than the Hueco/Vermin scale.

One could just as reasonably ask why outside ie "real" bouldering grades start off at such a stiff level. I mean it's a bit elitist to assume that folks getting their challenge on 5.7 don't enjoy short ropeless problems. They do. But Gill and Verm didn't give them any legitimacy.

Lena chita wrote:

Hahaha! I wish the grading was more universal within a GYM, wishing for things across different gyms in crazy talk!

I live in my own personal gym-grade-distortion hell: right now, in the same section of the wall next to each other, there is a “12-“ that is a bit easier than “10+” (but at least I can still do the 10!), and an “11+” that is harder than both of them, not sure how much harder, because I’m not even close to making the moves. 

On a lead wall, same thing: “12-“ and “11” that are no different from each other, and both way easier than “11-“ that I can’t do yet, but it is just one long move that I think I can eventually get. And two “11” and “11+” each that have multiple impossible moves. 

Right next to these is a “5.10” that feels like 5.7, except you would never find a route this overhanging in the 5.7 range, “5.10” that feels like 5.9, and “5.10-“ that feels like 5.10. 

Tell me again about this mythical thing called consistency. I like to dream sometimes... and no, consensus grading won’t help, most people seem to agree with the grades as given, maybe move it by 1+/-  

At our gym (VE in Illinois), we used to use a system where the head setter and one other setter would forerun every singe route that was set. They'd forerun once a week, and only tag the routes after they'd done so. (So a freshly set route wouldn't get a tag until after forerunning day.)

Now, we've moved to anonymous consensus grading. Each section of wall has a sign put up with a QR code on it. Scanning the code takes you to a Google form that allows you to vote for the grades on that section of wall, and you don't get to see what anyone else voted. After a week or 2, the head setter tags routes with the consensus grade.

The interesting thing is, I'm not sure that consistency has improved all that much. If anything, it's more scattered than it was in the previous system, most likely due to lack of (or at least inconsistent) participation among all gym members.

In my experience it's not that the moves indoors are actually easier, they're just way way more obvious, being brightly colored and all. Although it may be true for topouts; I've never climbed an indoor boulder where topping out was the hardest part but it happens to me all the time outside.

I think the difference of grade between our gym and outside seems to be the fact that you climb by color holds inside, and you don't have that luxury outside.
Inside, if you're on a blue route you just go for the next blue hold.  Only issue is to figure out the movement to use that hold.
Outside, you have to spend time recognizing the hold, then figure out how to use it.

But what do I know.... I'm a weakling just climbing for fun.