Onsight trad climbing - what do you do?

Zach Parsons wrote: Best to climb with a bigger rack and tend towards overprotecting when onsighting. It's easy to misjudge protection opportunities, and it sucks to find out that the crack you ran it out to, planning on slamming a bomber cam in, is actually super flaring.

Most climbing I do is onsight trad - this is how I justify my habit of sewing it up   .

I like to take extras of the sizes that I struggle with. For me, this means 0.75s.

The extra weight makes it harder to send imo.

Matt Wetmore wrote:

The extra weight makes it harder to send imo.

For sure.

But say you take a double rack instead of a single rack for your onsight attempt. That's, what, 3 lb extra? I'll happily haul that amount of extra weight for the advantages it can offer.

Maybe you won't have to fiddle with a nut instead of slamming in a cam because you've already placed that cam size elsewhere.

Maybe you can sew it up or place the perfect piece right before the crux, giving yourself the added confidence to go for it. Compared to having to commit above that tipped-out but probably(?) fine placement.

I generally find the weight to be well worth it. But I enjoy gear and don't climb super hard.

Todd the Tangler wrote:

This sounds very strange to me. If you're going to read comments/descriptions then why would the guidebook be off? And if the guidebook's off, how are you choosing which routes to try and "onsight?" Heck, the MP comments probably give you more beta than a guidebook would. I just don't get this logic I guess. Especially since it sounds like you're wanting to onsight harder grades. Some sort of guidebook must come into play if grades are a consideration. 

Okay not completely off - of course I do check the grade and if there's a X/PG13 rating on that climb & where they are. But I do try not to go beyond that if they're waxing on about pros needed etc.... Same for MP - except for multipitch I try not to consult it too much beforehand. I will for easier stuff I know I will/would onsight regardless (like 5.8 & below), because then my focus is on having the most fun, and then reading onto what people like/didn't and if it'll fit my preferences is sweet. I do read all of that after avidly (always fun to see what others have thought of it and how it compares to my experience).

It's not so much about onsighting the hardest grade I can - my focus is on being a better onsight/flash climber. IMO I'll get further in achieving that object if I refrain from gathering too much extra info on the climb other than what I can observe (and what I need to be safe - e.g. X-ratings & grade, at least for now). For example, I'd rather be able to onsight reliably, regardless of the style & conditions, 10b/c at the end of the summer than having onsighted a single 11a (coz I researched the crap out of it beforehand) yet still be unable most of the time to do that on 10-. I believe that to some degree, if I try to rely on my own observations for the most part when establishing my game plan, chances are I'll pay more attention to some details I might gloss over if I feel I have lots of info already (mp, guidebook, etc.). In other words I'll be a better observer all the time, while a guidebook or description might in one instance give you the same bit of info while for another climb it may be unavailable.

abandon moderation wrote: As a few people who said, In general I bring nuts and doubles of cams.

For the actual 'trick' of the gear though:
1. If at a good/comfortable stance early on in the climb and you have the option of a nut or a cam, place the nut. This is better than trying to place nuts through an overhanging crux at the end of the climb, because you placed all your cams early.
2. If you've already placed a few cams (let's say 2, 1, .75) and you get to another placement where you have options for cam placement (let's say either .75, .5) in general place the .5 since you still have two on your harness. Keep one of every size in reserve as long as possible. Also if where you're at it looks like you're forced to place your last .75 but you can climb a few feet higher to place the .5 or something else you still have double of, do that.

EDIT: Also if the gear is good and the fall is clean, don't be afraid to pull hard moves above your gear (aka fall). Stopping in the middle of a crux to try to place a piece is a sure way to blow the onsight.

#1 makes sense. I did try (mostly unsuccessfully) to place nuts in ackward stances at least twice last week-end. Can't remember if I would have had a chance to do that lower/better stance elsewhere, but being opportunistic about placing nuts in good stances is pretty smart.

Dat edit.... yeah I'm trying to do that. I did take 2 decent whips above good gear last week-end. I did take once though, after placing a piece that would have been more aid than actual protection. I have to admit to placing a proper one  in its place while on the take. I should instead have just tried to place a better piece and taken the fall had I not been able to!

sounds like you just need more mileage on traditional routes.  you mentioned the Dacks in particular, this is probably a style/area issue more than experience I'd say.  Daks can be hard to a newcomer.  Personally if I am familiar with area's style and/or rock type and/or protection quality, I climb the same grade whether sport/trad, including my onsight level.  I would expect a primarily sport climber, onsighting mid 5.11 to find a Daks mid 5.10 difficult to onsight.  Climb more in the Daks, you'll get there.  Another place that may be area/style specific is the Gunks, also drop your onsight ability a bit until you know the place.  Another example, for me personally, was going to Eldorado Canyon for the first time. I found it to remind me of my home crag, in terms of route finding, looking for and placing protection, therefore I climbed quite comfortably there and was able to onsight at my usual level. My wife and I travelled all over the USA for 2yrs, what I got out of it... my peak redpoints are not any higher than they were, but my onsight ability is very consistent at a specific grade, regardless of rock type, style, sport vs trad etc. Happy climbing, maybe see you in the Dacks

Old school method would be to onsight many climbs at 5.8 and below. Then gradually increase the grade. High mileage would train you to instinctively choose the right piece of gear. Pick quality routes and have fun!

Not gonna get into the macro/overall mentality of trad climbing (btw, if you're not onsight trad climbing, you're not trad climbing, you're just climbing on gear). But here are a few nitpicky detailed pointers.

-don't struggle to place gear over your head or way high too much.  If you're on a crack, often you're best off placing between waist and chest level.

-rack each cam on its own biner, unless you want to be labeled as "that guy who talks about how hard 5.8 is at the Gunks."

-don't place from strenuous stances unless you absolutely have to.

-face trad onsighting is amazing, and maybe the best true indicator of what kind of climber you are. If you want to onsight hard face trad, jump on a lot of hard face sport in the same area.

Usually when there is a huge disparity between someone's sport and trad onsight level it's because they are still uncomfortable/untrusting of their placements.. I would begin there.

btw, if you're not onsight trad climbing, you're not trad climbing, you're just climbing on gear

Damnit, all these years I thought I was trad climbing.

What's sweet about big climbs: get the grade, get the gear notes, avoid or go light on pitch-by-pitch beta and you get to have that onsight feel heading out from every belay, all day.

On site and flash are two different things.   I would go for the flash.... get all the beta you can, this isnt sport.   It is often impossible to guess the gear you will need from the ground.   One;  you often cant see the whole climb    Two; cracks are deceiving and subtle... and will fool you.   You better be really comfortable at run out.... cause it will happen... if you just walk up and try the on-site.  Or you will run out of the size you need and have of lower and clean the gear you need ( there goes the on site  to a hang-dog).... yes all from experience.....

Can be very dangerous....    trad is challenging enough with beta for the gear... which is often wrong anyway....but the margins are much better.

"My best onsights were when I was training to free the Nose - practicing to relax even when I felt really tired in the face of extremely difficult moves."
- Lynn Hill, Advanced Rock Climbing, Expert Skills and Techniques

"One of the best ways to perform hard onsights with consistency is to do a number of similar climbs, ideally at the same crag, before chalking up for the climb you most want to onsight."
Advanced Rock Climbing, Expert Skills and Techniques

"The ability to run it out safely is so important - doing it safely without using so much gear. Become aware of your body so you know when to protect it."
-Tommy Caldwell, Advanced Rock Climbing, Expert Skills and Techniques

"I hardly ever trust my life to a single piece of gear."
-Alex Honnold, Advanced Rock Climbing, Expert Skills and Techniques

Cory F wrote: FWIW, one of my first mentors suggested placing a bomber piece before a challenging section, climbing through the section, then place another piece.  His argument was getting too pumped placing might be more dangerous (increased chances of falling) than climbing a few more moves.  Of course, I find this to be somewhat situational advice.

Edit:  Another piece of advice I was given.  If its a long pitch place nuts when you have a very good stance.  Save the cams for the "plug and go" (the more challenging sections) parts.  I learned this lesson once and haven't forgotten it.

These are good points. What I would add on the first is double up the placements before you commit to that crux and you'll be far more likely to be able to give it your all. Sure if the piece is a .75 or the like you probably won't hold yourself back, but when you're going to have to pull something over a purple C3 I definitely want more. 

Sometimes I'll combine placing a brassie in the base of a pin scar with the micro cam above. I clip the same runner binner through the sling and nut wire (or a short qd from the nut to cam sling) to save on runners. Knowing I've got two pieces in there makes me much more likely to commit to a more dynamic move into the unknown. 

Best trick ever: toe push-ups while brushing your teeth. (Have your body weight on the front of your feet and repeatedly raise/lower your heels).
With strong calfs, you can hang out and place gear or figure out the crux sequence (as most trad routes have less "cheater" chalk than sport routes) much more comfortably. Most trad routes up to 5.11 are more foot intense than in need of arm strength (pure crack climbing excluded). Once you feel 100 toe-pushup repeats is a breeze, try them one legged. Don't try this while shaving though!

Patrik wrote: Best trick ever: toe push-ups while brushing your teeth. (Have your body weight on the front of your feet and repeatedly raise/lower your heels).
With strong calfs, you can hang out and place gear or figure out the crux sequence (as most trad routes have less "cheater" chalk than sport routes) much more comfortably. Most trad routes up to 5.11 are more foot intense than in need of arm strength (pure crack climbing excluded). Once you feel 100 toe-pushup repeats is a breeze, try them one legged. Don't try this while shaving though!

I think having strong calves is even more important on pure crack climbs, because you are usually standing on one foot in the crack and one out side the crack for stability.  Sewing machine leg is deadly when on a thin crack.

My biggest focus when on a mainly crack climb is to try and shift as much weight off of my jams as I can and onto my feet, the thinner the crack, the more I try and get onto my feet.

1. Memorize what color cams are what sizes
2. Rack your gear the same way every time, so that you can grab the gear you want without looking
3. Practice placing gear until you are at the point where you can choose the right piece the first time every time
4. Take as little gear as safely possible, try to go light
5. Don't place nuts unless you are at a resting spot; otherwise you will get pumped trying to place it. Nuts take too long to place
6. Get comfortable falling on trad gear. I know this sounds counterintuitive if you are trying to onsight, but it's probably the most important step. If you are comfortable falling on trad gear you can stay relaxed when you are above your gear, allowing you to climb better. You will also be comfortable with longer runouts, which will allow you to place less gear, spend less time hanging around getting pumped while you place gear, and go lighter.
7. Don't place gear in the crux. Place some bomber pieces below it, and then send it and get some gear in above. If it is a long, sustained crux then this might not be possible, but oftentimes the crux is just a short section. Many of my falls or close calls have been due to stopping mid-crux and hanging on the hardest part of the route while I get gear in, which will pump you super quick. Also when you are scared and struggling you often place crappy gear that either gets stuck or wouldn't hold a fall, so it's not worth it.
8. When in doubt, run it out :)
Good luck!

Franck Vee wrote:

I think so - I've onsighted most 5.9 I've tried. I would say that's what I think will happen when I get on one.

Sport vs trad grade are not equivalent. But say in sport I can expect to onsight or be really close to onsight 11d and succeed maybe 50% of the time. I would say onsighting 11c & under is almost 100. Onsighting 12a doesn't happen that often, but it feels quite possible under decent circumstances (style or route etc.). But for trad, adding 1-2 # grades to that "near-certain onsight level", and it feels like I would need to luck out to onsight 10b. The difference feels disportionate.

I don't care about the grades per se, it's mostly a convenient way to try give myself a reference about how relatively hard grades can be...

It's not really a tip, but my trad onsight and sport onsight grade are about the same these days, trad being my hardest onsights. I think it is purely what you are used to and have mileage on. My tip is to put in your mileage, build your pyramid, and accept that it is a different sport to a degree when you first start out. It's taken about 2 years for my trad and sport grades to equalize (though tbh I don't try as many 5.12 sport routes as 5.12 trad)

Alex Nelson wrote: 5. Don't place nuts unless you are at a resting spot; otherwise you will get pumped trying to place it. Nuts take too long to place

It takes Alex too long to place nuts, and he becomes pumped. I agree, don't place any gear in a crux, wait until you are at a rest spot, then place whatever gear you think is appropriate. 

Most seasoned trad leaders can spot and place a nut in plenty of time not to get pumped.  Placing a nut lower on a route and saving the cam for higher up makes sense, as does using nuts in an anchor, or when there is an obvious placement. 

Get good at placing nuts, practice on the ground by trying to get the nut size right the first time on different sized cracks, it will pay dividends when you need to place gear and you used all your cams.

Breaking all this down ruins it.  

Cory F wrote: The bigger question is: "Can a trad follower get an onsight?"  Hear me out: Theres so much involved with finding good positions to remove the pieces.  Sometimes you need to use a nut tool to hammer out the nut, doing this without a take can be impressive.  Then...  theres the whole reracking and putting the extended slings back into alpine draws.  So much work.

Is it all about the trad leader getting all of the flashy onsight credit for being awesome?

On a slightly less serious note:
Everyone has their preferences.  I think getting a lot of mileage (thus practice) on easier trad routes will help you become more efficient at the process and find what works for you.

The yet bigger question is - should the team care about whether the follower gets the onsight?  Speaking for myself, if I'm the leader I certainly give my follower a very attentive belay, and give them every opportunity to get the pitch clean if they want/can.  But honestly, when I'm following on a multi-pitch route where I'm trading leads, I really don't care that much about my style.  I'll get stuff clean if I can do it expeditiously.  But for example if there's a stuck piece, screw it.  I'll plug in a piece real quick, clip in direct, clean the stuck piece, and continue on my way.  Or if there's a sequence I could maybe figure out and get clean if I continuously downclimb to a rest, milk the rest, and work out the crux - no way.  Homey don't have time for that.  I'll give it my best shot, and if we really have tons of time to play with, I might try and fail a couple times.  But most likely I'll french-free through if I can't work it out pretty quickly.  

Basically my mindset as a follower is to get to the belay as quickly and efficiently as possible, and have fun while I do it.  My mindset as a leader is always to onsight if I can.

Regarding lots of mileage on easier routes, I think I disagree with you there, too.  I don't think anything really prepares you for onsighting at your limit better than onsighting at your limit.  There are so many more pieces that come into play, so many more mental and physical skills you need to develop, that you just can't learn unless you are climbing at (or near) your limit.  

I would say that, given the options of onsighting easier routes, or working harder routes, putting serious work into routes at your limit is a much more effective training tool for onsighting hard routes.  Basically you're training your body and your mind how to commit to really hard sequences when you're pumped and above your gear.  How to best utilize marginal rests.  How to recognize and make use of the right body positions for placing gear when you're pumped.  Etc etc etc.  Basically everything except route-finding.

Buck Rio wrote:

It takes Alex too long to place nuts, and he becomes pumped. I agree, don't place any gear in a crux, wait until you are at a rest spot, then place whatever gear you think is appropriate. 

Most seasoned trad leaders can spot and place a nut in plenty of time not to get pumped.  Placing a nut lower on a route and saving the cam for higher up makes sense, as does using nuts in an anchor, or when there is an obvious placement. 

Get good at placing nuts, practice on the ground by trying to get the nut size right the first time on different sized cracks, it will pay dividends when you need to place gear and you used all your cams.

How do you organize nuts? I tend to do 1 biner for smaller stuff, another for bigger ones with an overlapping size in the middle (so that if I'm "off by one" for the biggest of the small/smallest of the bigs I can still make do). Do you split it even more?