"Escaping the Belay" is not a thing

Fran M wrote:

downward is in the direction of my green, cloved rope, which happens to be the same as the fall line (last piece) so both blue and purple should get some load.

id argue that if the fall line and downward direction dont coincide, still build the anchor for a downward pull in case the last piece (responsible of the fall line) pops out. And back up the anchor piece that opposes said fall line (purple xam in this case)

thanks for the clarification!

Mark Pilate wrote: Ok I pulled the tombstone. We’re going 20 pages lol

To Chris And Rockklimber — you guys are disappointing.  not sure why you guys are having such a knee jerk reactionary defense that the MMO must be used or there’s something wrong.  You guys are now sounding like the dogmatic AMGA acolytes that HB was grumbling about.    I tossed out an idea for legit feedback as I am not totally sold yet myself as I’ve been just playing with it for a few days.  But you guys have yet to formulate a legit criticism.

Back to basics:  the ONLY reason for the MMO is so that you can rig a transfer to a friction hitch.   It’s a step that you do and then undo only because it is assumed you need two hands to do the hitch.   It’s based on assumptions.   I like to overcome assumptions and dogma and cut to the chase if I can.  I described an option that is available that eliminates the need.  Try it or don’t try it, it may or may not work for you in all situations, but then few things do.  

But arguing how fast you can do potentially needless steps is not a sound argument to keep doing them.  Or just Because “that’s the procedure”.    
As Tradiban says, “don’t just regurgitate your knowledge,  apply it”. 

To clarify, I like the MMO myself and find it potentially useful.  (And I can tie it in 2.5 secs, so there). I am not advocating FOR my suggestion, I’m arguing AGAINST dogmatic and false arguments that keep popping up.   As soon as someone shows it’s not suitable from a legit standpoint I’ll be the first to acknowledge it.    
How fast you can tie an MMO is a false argument. 
“I tried it, but I can’t tie a Klemheist without two hands” is a legit argument.  Or, “I never have slings or cords on my shoulder or harness, they’re always buried”  
Oh, and as long as this thread is back on, Rockklimber your criticism of the pic is off base.  
And Mariner knots are used by many in rescue.  

Nothing knee jerk, reactionary or defensive about my response.  I explained why I dont like your method.  If you dont accept my explanation thats on you.  I see that you want so badly to sell your newly found technique that you have hardly used yourself, but as I said before you havent sold me.  You asked for feedback and you got it.  It appears you dont want to accept other experienced climbers opinions.  So which of us can s being defensive?

Yes. They might be potentially needless steps.  But yours you even admit yiu’re still not sold on  I know that those I use work for me and I have no trouble with them.  And I know it is safe.
I can tie a klemheist one handed.  But I dont need to.  
And I dont always carry a shoulder sling over my shoulder when I am following.  And the ones I use are dyneema.  
The pic shows a single piece of gear holding a load.  Definitely not ideal.  If it was we’d all be building one piece belay anchors.  If the mariners knot works for you, great.  

I actually had a nightmare about this thread last night.

Nightmare OG will cure that

Paging Dr. Banner, Dr. Bruce Banner

Sir? I trust you completely. It was wonderful climbing with you, gote!! An awful lot of firsts for one little climbing trip.

About fivish people I can say that about, the complete "oh shit what now?" trust:
1. My son, no, not just because he's my son, he's also SAR and an EMT
2. My Best Friend Ever, the mountaineer
3. Another mountaineer friend who is a Psycho ascentionist
4. A mariner
5. The physics professor

Others, probably. But I haven't met them yet, and they are still.... maybes. Only two on that list I have yet to meet but who have that trust now.

Best, Helen

Mark-

I think you're missing my point.  Every situation is unique and should be approached as such.  Obviously, the quickest, simplest, most effective system should be employed during a rescue.  My point is that the MMO is quick and easy and in response to the the thread, is most certainly a thing.  I did not say at anywhere the MMO must be used. It is, however, a better option than some of the examples given upthread, thus my contention.  Even a leg wrap would work better than some of the previous suggestions.

And I'd like to see a video of your 2.5 seconds!

chris magness wrote: Mark-

I think you're missing my point.  Every situation is unique and should be approached as such.  Obviously, the quickest, simplest, most effective system should be employed during a rescue.  My point is that the MMO is quick and easy and in response to the the thread, is most certainly a thing.  I did not say at anywhere the MMO must be used. It is, however, a better option than some of the examples given upthread, thus my contention.  Even a leg wrap would work better than some of the previous suggestions.

And I'd like to see a video of your 2.5 seconds!

I agree with both of you and concur that a video demonstration would be the most gentlemanly way to settle this.

God, this thread refuses to die.  And despite my own best judgment, I can’t resist coming back.  
I think I dreamt about Phylp last night.  

Chris and Fritz - thanks for calling my bluff.  I’ll post video as soon as I can actually get the belay Tie off MMO under 2.5 secs!   Getting pretty close.... would make it if I used two hands,  haha.

Rockklimber — Let’s not continue to argue just for arguments sake as we have already crossed that line long ago, but I think if you objectively re-read your posts, they consist mainly of specious conclusions or off topic tangential questions or statements seemingly just to expand the argument .(not so with rgold or Chris).   

Paraphrasing and inserting the implications, you kept coming back with “what do you do next? (After transfer, There is no difference), knives are dangerous, mariner knots are crazy, that anchor will kill you, etc.....

As for the anchor:  
Interesting.  Upthread you picked a pointless argument with Mark801c about anchors.  In THAT post you decided to point out for everyone’s benefit that nobody ever has three upward anchors and three downward anchors, yadda
Yadda....

here’s the reality of it, vs. your “ideal” 

• - first off,  the anchor wasn’t part of the discussion or the trial.  It just had to hold for testing other factors.   No lives were at risk. 

• - regardless, Often in the real world where accidents happen, you may have to rely on one bomber piece.  If you can re-arrange and back it up, great.  If you can add to it, great.   But don’t just up and quit if you can’t .  Disagree?

• -That piece (a #8 stopper) was bomber.  It is holding less than 100lbs static load.  I’ve relied on way more sketch systems in the alpine over the years, but maybe I’m a crap climber.   I just can’t seem to pull off the “ideal” as much as some apparently can.   

• - I worry more about the leader’s harness buckle failing and coming undone.   I saw that somewhere. 

• -If your pro can’t hold being eased onto a few hundred pounds,  then I recommend you hold tight and wait for rescue.  

• - You are only doing this after shit has already hit the fan.   You’re needlessly getting in the weeds of worry if you are sweating extremely Low probability additional risks.   All you have is your judgement.  Do the best you can with what you got.  Be as safe as possible. Think before you do something but don’t overthink it.  

• -the “slack” in the tie off is a non-issue.  The Klemheist isn’t going to suddenly explode into failure.   It may slip a bit and the slack is slowly taken up.  Again, needless worry.  

Do we really disagree?

The bigger issues really lay beyond the escape.... I’m actually more surprised that nobody pushed back on my suggested emergency thoracostomies. 
And to really give Phylp nightmares, how about resuscitative proctoclysis ? 

Better hope I’m not nearby on your next rescue!

Proposed thread conflation: would escaping the belay become a thing if your harness was crunching your nuts?

Paul Morrison wrote: Proposed thread conflation: would escaping the belay become a thing if your harness was crunching your nuts?

That's why you carry a knife, dear. 

No worries here, I have barely read this thread and just wanted to keep bumping it. #WhatWouldTRADIBeANDo

Mark Pilate wrote: ... how about resuscitative proctoclysis ? 
...

My hydration bladder is to be used solely for oral administration of fluids, thank you very much! 

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

My hydration bladder is to be used solely for oral administration of fluids, thank you very much! 

Whatever it takes to keep you alive Andrew....you’re gettin your fluids and electrolytes one way or another. Haha.    And I sure ain’t using mine!

We are talking about butt hydration? Is that even a thing? Harumpfster?

It’s a thing.   Fallen out of favor with local EMS for obvious reasons, but still the only backcountry option for fluid administration to an unconscious trauma patient.  Good recommendation for hydration bladders over a Nalgene.  

You’ll be walkin funny if I have to use the Nalgene 

Colonel Mustard wrote: We are talking about butt hydration? Is that even a thing? Harumpfster?

Yea. Never had the pleasure, personally. But its a thing.

Mark Pilate wrote:You’ll be walkin funny if I have to use the Nalgene 

Split the difference with a Klean Kanteen or maybe go with the whizzinator for a more natural feel?

You have permission to go intraosseus on me btw. 

jktinst wrote:

Alright. I got way ahead of myself there.

The testing I had done up up to now was quite encouraging (4 tests on up to 4 clips both straight and "zig-zaggy", with the knot slipping right through all of the BD Positron Straight Gate biners under body weight), but I knew full well that this wasn't anywhere near enough testing. I had meant to do quite a bit more, with more clips and on a wider variety of routes before discussing it here, so I really should have resisted the temptation to post.
...

Looping back to this earlier part of the discussion, I thought I'd post an interim report here and now. However, I expect that, when I get around to completing the testing and writing the full report, it will go on a new thread.

So far, partners and I have carried out 4 full tests on short routes, some more straight, others more "zig-zaggy" (1 sport and 1 trad at each of two different crags). In these tests, the leader takes up the rope while at the top anchor and re-ties-in, leaving the belayer to lower him by passing the EDK knot between the climbing rope and the extension through all the draws placed on the route. These tests are in addition to the preliminary testing that I referred to earlier and that included some tests on a large tree (with the draws clipped along the trunk), as opposed to a proper route.

Making sure that the two main conditions identified in the preliminary testing were respected (biners big enough for the knots and not pulled tight against the rock by the rope passing over a bulge or edge just above), the knots passed fine through every single draw of each route (5, 6, 7 and 7 draws). There are other conditions/precautions that are also important but quite easy to fulfill, and they will be detailed in the full report. The tests used pretty standard combinations of ropes and extension cords, and also used biners that, while not the smallest, are certainly reasonable to include on a standard rack (eg: straight-gate BD Positron, as mentioned earlier).

Basically, everything I've seen/done so far indicates that, provided you know (and have tested ahead of time) that a few fairly simple conditions are fulfilled, it can be a viable option to lower a leader from a top pro located beyond the half-rope point by extending the rope and passing the knot through both the belay and the draws placed on the lower part of the pitch. I wouldn't want to try this if the leader's accident occurred near the end of a rope-stretcher pitch but it certainly looks like it would work fine in plenty of other situations.

Some of the additional tests I still want to do would be at yet another crag, on a somewhat longer route with more draws, and on trad routes using double ropes, but I don't anticipate major issues there either.

On a different note, looping back this time to rgold's posts, I agree that learning by rote prescribed steps for specific situations is no good, given the infinite range of possible situations. However, as I've said before, I don't agree with the opposite view that one only needs to know the basic individual techniques and should be able to assemble them into a workable self-rescue strategy adapted to each different situation. In my experience, when you work through detailed specific scenarios on paper, in practice and on the forums, you realize often enough that going for a more obvious solution will commit you to a strategy that, in the end, may be either unworkable or take much longer than a less obvious option.

Mark Pilate wrote: God, this thread refuses to die.  And despite my own best judgment, I can’t resist coming back.  
I think I dreamt about Phylp last night.  

The bigger issues really lay beyond the escape.... I’m actually more surprised that nobody pushed back on my suggested emergency thoracostomies. 
And to really give Phylp nightmares, how about resuscitative proctoclysis ? 

Better hope I’m not nearby on your next rescue!

Haha, Mark, I just saw your response.  I am honored to be dreamt about - hope that wasn't a nightmare!  I recently got back from a couple of weeks climbing on the east side of the Sierra and Tuolumne.  Didn't have any nightmares on that trip - slept like a baby.

On a more serious note, I was reminded of the themes in this thread while reading about the very very sad accident on Pingora in the "injuries and Accidents" section.  Leader falls, second (escapes the belay), and dies tragically on rappel while attempting to get a rescue.  Other climbers come upon the stranded leader, use an INReach Mini- borrowed for this trip - to call for a rescue.  Are connected immediately.  Other climber get to the top and get a cell signal to help rescue helicopter pinpoint rescue location.  

None of the places I climb would be called remote though often there is no cell signal.  For some routes, I carry a pair of walkie-talkies, mostly for walls with wandering lines where I have experienced windy communication issues.  But they can often be used for communication to the outside world.  We also own an In-Reach mini, since my husband does go to remote places.  He resents me insisting he carry it, but I don't have nightmares when he's in communication with it once a day.  I'll have to consider taking the Garmin out with me as situations might warrant.  Stay safe out there people...