More Tensleep Drama

Sandy Crimp wrote: Can anyone share what walls (or better what routes) are affected?  I think that's pretty important for people to know. 

Note that only Louie's routes have been targeted, older manufactured climbs are still there.

as of first two weeks of July

Funky Town: (info second hand)

-I heard padlocks on all the bolts, but don't know if bolts have been removed/pockets filled

Slavery: (info second hand)
-some of the louie routes in between Schools out and Mommas Mental Meds chopped/Locked

Oblivion: Unknown

House wall: Unknown

Drugs:
- Drug of choice is padlocked but pockets are unaffected, stickclip bolt 2
- Heroin Hoedown is gone
- Didn't check on Last chance for mary jane

Sex:
-all routes remain unchopped

Tenacious Tower:
 - all routes intact

Firm Sector:
-all routes left of Bulletproofe were intact, didn't look for the ones to the right

Ministry:
-all/most Louie FAs gone (I only took a cursory glance but I think it was everything from Knee High to Stigmata gone, including both of those, not sure about ministry)

The Ark:
-all routes intact to my knowledge

Honkytonk:
-Routes left of shotgun rider intact, Shotgun Rider and routes right are filled and one or two bolts stripped from each (SR in particular has B1 and B3 missing and the clipping holds for B4 filled)

Powers:
-Fat bastard had a red lock, I assume some pockets filled, the warmup 10+ also looked weird (not the one on the pillar, on the face to the left). There are new good warmups on the left side of this wall and all other routes looked fine.

Trump Tower: (info second hand)
-routes missing several bolts (specifically cheeto bandito)

Shooting Gallery/Supremacy: Unknown

If anyone wants this updated they can DM me with more info, all info first hand from me unless stated otherwise

Minutes from last meeting.
https://www.facebook.com/bighornclimbers/?__tn__=kC-R&eid=ARB1qxpkl0aG1HDWl7JGoIVJrhB8ei9V5TaCCphSUa3Pc2KXHnpCbWW23T_mUdT-5D4cM2DNKuffLndh&hc_ref=ARSjdMN-v_JZhEa9e1r30vU4yBaBPI1FeHUMetvBPn8pJOg4ouzDSApxH67nwne3geM&fref=nf

Quoted from link:
"The Round Table Meeting on Saturday evening resulted in a productive resolution that will protect the Canyon for years to come.

Two representatives from the USFS, Powder River Ranger District Office attended the meeting, and shared their opinions and actions on the recent route removal effort in Ten Sleep Canyon. "This vigilante action was a massive step backwards in the resolution of this entire issue." As per the letter dated 7/11/2019, "As of July 19, 2019, the USDA Forest Service will be enforcing regulations that prohibit constructing new climbing routes or trails on the Bighorn National Forest, including Ten Sleep Canyon. If an individual or group is manufacturing or creating new routes with any type of permanent hardware or apparatus to include bolts, glue, manufactured hand holds; or modifying routes through chipping or hammering new or existing holds, they will be subject to criminal fines, to include money for restitution to the impacted area."

The Bighorn Climbers' Coalition is of the opinion that the USFS decision is a positive step for the Canyon. Let's face it- the Canyon has seen extensive development for 20+ years and could use a break.

The BCC, USFS, and climbing community are moving forward with a plan to implement a "Dolomite Development Guideline" to which route developers must adhere to once the Climbing Management Plan is in place. This process takes time, so please be patient as we work to develop a long term solution. The USFS has stated that the moratorium will be lifted upon the implementation of these guidelines. In the mean time, please enjoy some of the 1000+ routes that the Canyon and beyond has to offer.

Additionally, we spoke with the USFS representatives about continuing to maintain and replace aging hardware through our Bighorn Anchor Initiative program. Pending U.S. Attorney approval, we should have the green light to continue this great program. This should give us all a chance to take care of the climbs we love!

As always, please reach out if you have any questions. The official letter from USFS will be posted Monday."

10,000 routes in that canyon or bust. Glue and drill baby!

Louie, you did something great at the Riverside Quarry. Nobody complained because it was a quarry. Natural rocks are something different. It is obvious that the community at Ten Sleep are not stoked on what you are doing, and have been clear about it. Bolting itself is controversy enough but is generally accepted because most people don't want to die young. You are a creative guy and there is a perfect medium for your efforts. Indoor gyms are in their infancy as to what they could be. You have the skill and energy to build your own and make it the best one ever. Tearing up the outdoor areas with the drill is below the true artist. It is a fine line and you are crossing it. People are shitting on you. Think it over man. You can do better.

Good job everyone. Things like moratoriums and US Attorney approvals never occur quickly. There are rules to write/approve, public comment periods, and studies to be done. Williamson anyone?  As for getting US Attorney approval for an anchor replacement plan, I have no idea why the USFS would need that, or why the DOJ would give a shit. I hope that I am wrong, but as someone who has a fair bit of experience with the Feds, I believe that this will shut down new route development and hardware replacement in ALL of the Bighorns for many years.

Guy H. wrote: Let's face it- the Canyon has seen extensive development for 20+ years and could use a break.

Let's face it:

You all blew it.  And now all new bolting is CRIMINAL.  Great job guys.

Am not disappointed at the following only because its too predictable:  you still blame the "vigilantes" while apologizing for nothing?

That "meeting" sounds more like the Forest Service reading the riot act, but I guess you all circling back to old talking in circle habits means something circular happened??

The FS couldn't give a shit about chipped holds. Hold modification has been happening in the canyon for decades.

But when 2 kids are arguing about their toy, what do the parents do? They take it away.

coldfinger wrote: Let's face it:

You all blew it.  And now all new bolting is CRIMINAL.  Great job guys.

Am not disappointed at the following only because its too predictable:  you still blame the "vigilantes" while apologizing for nothing?

That "meeting" sounds more like the Forest Service reading the riot act, but I guess you all circling back to old talking in circle habits means something circular happened??

Just to clarify - the quote is from the facebook post by the BCC.  I'm not a member of the BCC, but my wife and I do spend a lot of time in Ten Sleep.  We are very disappointed in all of this.

"If an individual or group is manufacturing or creating new routes with any type of permanent hardware or apparatus to include bolts, glue, manufactured hand holds; or modifying routes through chipping or hammering new or existing holds, they will be subject to criminal fines, to include money for restitution to the impacted area."

Sounds like a massive step FORWARD. Doesn't seem it would have happrned without the 18.

Looks like the sport climbing chickens have come home to roost!   

Deez Nuts wrote: "If an individual or group is manufacturing or creating new routes with any type of permanent hardware or apparatus to include bolts, glue, manufactured hand holds; or modifying routes through chipping or hammering new or existing holds, they will be subject to criminal fines, to include money for restitution to the impacted area."

Sounds like a massive step FORWARD. Doesn't seem it would have happrned without the 18.

You also missed the part about new bolting and hardware replacement. Also, it is not just Ten Sleep, but the entire Big Horn NF. Finally, it took many years for the USFS to recognize sport climbing and route development as a legitimate use. So, are we back to square one? As I said earlier, great job everyone. 

Wow, a new route moratorium? Way to go everyone.

HAHAHAHA! That's exactly what I thought could happen, and it did......Now people come out of the woodwork with the "I told you so posts"....Way to go, no more route developing for you, and good luck getting that reversed!!!!!!!!!!!! You say you're fine with it now, but 5-10 years down the road, it's going to be a headache. I personally think it's somewhat similar to climbers starting their internal pissing match in relation to climbing Devils Tower in June. Now, granted these aren't even remotely similar issues, but climbers as a collective group are going to do more harm than good in respect to their publicly made argument/pissing matches.

Embarrassed to say wrote:

☝️ I agree. Also, before the internet and the social media buzz (Mountain Project included), this wouldn’t have been that big of a deal. Keep it up with the chopping/red locks and overall banter and I’ll bet soon “big govt” will step in. I’ll bet route development gets a whole lot harder after that......there’s plenty of crags where there’s zero bolting allowed. You think they care if there’s no toprope access?? 

Written on July 9th and wouldn't ya' know it, "Big Brother" took care of the problem their way. 

Guys this isn't a good thing. At all. Sure, it might have made climbers and developers realize that manufacturing climbs in TS is not acceptable but it has done so at the risk of losing all future route development in TS. The government does not move quickly so it is likely that the moratorium will stretch on much longer than anticipated.

If you don't believe me, look at the history of climbing in the Red River Gorge. Yeah, the circumstances are a little different: all climbing was banned in the Daniel Boone National Forest before the RRGCC lobbied to allow climbing access without new route development. However, a bolting moratorium has been in place for going on 20 years now. All of the new route development currently happening in the Red is on privately owned land (MFRP, PMRP, Muir Valley, etc.). Supposedly the Forest Service is "open" to revisiting the moratorium but so far that hasn't meant much. Ten Sleep is a backwoods climbing area compared to the Red, and the BCC is tiny compared to the RRGCC. If the RRGCC has been unable to change the Forest Service's policies, is a much smaller organization like the BCC really going to be able to do it?

The Red is a special case because so much of the available climbing was on private land to start with, which gave climbers an alternative if they could work successfully with land owners. Unfortunately, almost everything in Ten Sleep is on National Forest land, meaning that there are no alternatives available for new route development.

Climbers (BCC) didn't have the balls to stop Gluey from destroying our shared resource. Now the area is limited to the 1000+ existing routes. Seems fair.

All yalls bitching sounds like the petroleum industry bitching about the epa not letting them continue to destroy our shared natural resources. Cry me a polluted river.

The failure is not the 18's or the FS. The failre is the BCC's inaction and the Gluey family's selfish for profit/ego destruction of our resource.

Cole Paiement wrote: 
If you don't believe me, look at the history of climbing in the Red River Gorge. Yeah, the circumstances are a little different: all climbing was banned in the Daniel Boone National Forest before the RRGCC lobbied to allow climbing access without new route development. However, a bolting moratorium has been in place for going on 20 years now. All of the new route development currently happening in the Red is on privately owned land (MFRP, PMRP, Muir Valley, etc.).

Yup.  The whole thing sounds a whole lot like the RRGCC/USFS MOU, except without an actual MOU, without any private land to develop and without a bunch of potential financial donors in nearby metropolitan areas.  This is a huge junk show.  Textbook "what not to do" case.

It's easy for the USFS to enact a ban, but there's really not much incentivizing them to lift it. 

It's easy for the USFS to enact a ban, but there's really not much incentivizing them to lift it.

They enact grazing bans, campfire bans, biking bans, wood collecting bans, etc.

and lift them, all the time.

I think you are stuck in the 1980's when climbers were barely (if even) recognized as a legitimate user group. The sport has grown. Economic impacts of climbers are clearly evident from the Red to Joe's to Bishop. Small towns benefit the most. If 10 Sleep visitors aren't contributing to the economic growth of the area they don't deserve more than 1000 routes. If they are, they will be able to make the necessary changes.

Maybe a glass half full/empty thing?

Be optimistic, and prepared to work at it. The history of City of Rocks and Castle Rock State park, is a pretty good example of how these places might sort out, going forward.

Also, it is ongoing. Don't think you are done at any point. I think it's safe to say climbing is growing, and it is in everyone's best interest, no matter where you climb, to recognize how important it is to be good stewards and respect the local rules. Trash, poop, dogs, respecting trails, stuff like that, are mostly common courtesy and easy to apply everywhere. But crossing into private land, route development, wildlife closures, that sort of thing, are where we all need to respectfully find out what the locale allows currently, respect that, or risk blowing it for everyone, maybe for years or decades. It takes a long time to build the usually complex relationships that allow climbing to happen, a very short time to badly damage the work of others.

No, I have never been to tensleep, but access isn't a given at a single place I climb. It's an ongoing negotiation.

Best, Helen

MP reading comprehension skills never fail to make me laugh.

This situation really has NOTHING to do with the Red River!  

First the USFS stated that they would lift the moratorium when the development guidelines are implemented as part of the Climbing Management Plan.  Second, the USFS, upon checking with DOJ (their legal counsel since they are so poorly funded and need the help) is also willing to let anchor replacement continue.

I find it pretty funny that the BCC hosted a "ROUND TABLE" for their customary circular talk.

Perhaps the greatest irony is that it appears the Moratorium may only apply to "creating new routes with any type of permanent hardware or apparatus to include bolts, glue, manufactured hand holds; or modifying routes through chipping or hammering new or existing holds".

Call me crazy but if that language is accurate, it is directed squarely at Gluey but as for EXISTING routes would allow the removal of bolts and/or the filling in of drilled or manufactured pockets with glue!!!!  There is no mention of using glue as far as existing routes goes.  Plus there is no mention of red padlocks.  

So while the BCC continues to call the 18 "vigilantes", I don't see anything in the USFS' language directed at them.

So I guess the 18 can continue to remove the routes they couldn't get to and padlocked????  HaHa!!