You leave it in place while trying to pull rap ropes ? Interesting.
That's a good ? She already pulled the ropes but somehow had both ends? I was assuming she was in the process of repelling and one of the ropes got stuck somewhere.regardless, if I had both sides of the rope I could simply slide on the Smart Alpine and Batman up.
Also, it begs the question if she somehow did get both sides of the rope then how did she know that the rope was secure enough to prussik on?
Hope all got some climbs in this weekend. Grab a beer, this’ll be TL;DR. And I’ll probably come up with some shit at the end that will have you spitting out a mouthful if you’re still reading...
Pretty much agree with everyone here depending on the context and degrees. In the spectrum of rescue scenarios, there’s one where each point here makes sense and applies.
Agree with rgold and others that adherence to rigid protocols and practicing scenarios can often lead to greater confusion when things don’t stay on script (they never do) as opposed to just adding to and expanding your tool box. Knots, hitches, etc are just like a good set of sockets.
I haven’t been as lucky as rgold. I’ve personally been involved in about a dozen rescues. Some professionally, some ad hoc, and two technical self-Evacs where I was the victim. Several key takeaways stand out. 1). The more you do for yourself, helps speed things up and gets you to where you want to be quicker. 2). The totally unconscious and incapacitated victim is very rare. Anyone who survives past the first hour, their chances are looking good. If the don’t survive that first hour, it wasn’t in the cards almost regardless of actions. 3). Aside from a few places with top notch teams, don’t always expect that it’s the A team coming for you. There’s a better chance than you’d care to know, that it could be a clown show coming for you. Oh, they’ll get you out all right, but you might be left thinking in hindsight “I should’ve got down myself and met them at the base or on the trail”. 4). WEMT/WALS skills are nice to have, but could be boiled down to 1 hour class for useful reality. 90% is what a savvy educated person would do anyway. Aside from common sense, All you need to know are reducing dislocations and emergency thoracotomy (solving a tension pneumothorax due to trauma) - ok spit beer here. Mostly serious. See Jack Roberts accident related in this thread....And similar accidents like it. Maybe that’s a new thread. But it’s about the one major life saving thing in the field that could theoretically be done.
Anything else is just immobilizing a fracture and getting down ASAP.
Rockklimber - I can tell you didn’t actually try the one handed Klemheist. I just trained my inexperienced girlfriend on it today while resting between climbs. It takes 15 secs. We timed it. Rgold already explained, but yes, you do all the other same steps. After the 15 sec tie on of the Klemheist, you connect it to the anchor MP. To add in a one handed mariner knot for quick release added an additional 45 secs.
Again, not saying to always try this, just that after doing it, the speed and ease of escaping is obvious. Try it. You may never go back. I’ll try to post a video later.
rgold
·
Jul 21, 2019
·
Poughkeepsie, NY
· Joined Feb 2008
· Points: 526
I haven't been that lucky with rescue avoidance, I've been involved in maybe 8--10 over 62 years. Some of them were in dangerous alpine conditions, others on benign crags. But I have yet to have to escape the belay, that was my original point.
I can tie off my ATC in three or four seconds without looking down, with another three or four seconds for the backup overhand knot, so I don't personally see any advantage to Mark's shortcut. Moreover, I keep prussik loops in a chalk bag pocket and would want to be hands-free to fish them out anyway, as I greatly prefer an autoblock with cord to a sling with a kleimheist, and there might be times when I don't happen to have a sling as well.
As for whether one "needs" to know such things, I guess it is up to the individual to decide how broad a range of tools for very unlikely occurrences they want to learn. Personally, perhaps because of my proclivities as an academic, I think the more you know the better, as long as you understand the limitations and gotcha's of the protocols, and I for one actually enjoy learning arcane stuff even if it is of questionable actual utility.
I have some sympathy for HB's perspective, which comes, if I may presume it, from observing the endless exhortations we hear that folks barely out of the gym should be learning "belay escapes"---as if they could do anything with them---not to mention other even more arcane self-rescue procedures. I do, however, think that the ability to ascend a free-hanging strand (starting from a hanging position on the rope) is essential knowledge for anyone who intends to second multipitch climbs on steep terrain. An uninjured second who can't get themselves out of trouble is a significant drag and liability for the party. HB says 99% of climbers don't know how to do this. Maybe so in the ever more popular single-pitch world, but if true more generally it would be a scandal.
That's a good ? She already pulled the ropes but somehow had both ends? I was assuming she was in the process of repelling and one of the ropes got stuck somewhere.regardless, if I had both sides of the rope I could simply slide on the Smart Alpine and Batman up.
Also, it begs the question if she somehow did get both sides of the rope then how did she know that the rope was secure enough to prussik on?
No, she hadnt already pulled the ropes. She tried but they were stuck. So the rope was still secure.
Most people dont carry smart alpines. A couple of prussiks cost a few dollars.
No, she hadnt already pulled the ropes. She tried but they were stuck. So the rope was still secure.
Most people dont carry smart alpines. A couple of prussiks cost a few dollars.
So she used two prussiks to ascend? That's a pain in the ass. With a Smart Alpine she could have practically walked up the wall to fix the problem. Add in a purcell/prussik footloop for overhanging terrain, so for $35 more than the prussiks alot of time and hassle could have been saved.
Shoot her my number and I can update her skills: 951-527-7959
So she used two prussiks to ascend? That's a pain in the ass. With a Smart Alpine she could have practically walked up the wall to fix the problem. Add in a purcell/prussik footloop for overhanging terrain, so for $35 more than the prussiks alot of time and hassle could have been saved.
Shoot her my number and I can update her skills: 951-527-7959
It’s easy when you actually know how to do it right and take a little time to practice it.
There are many ways to jug a rope wirh all kinds of fancy gear. A couple of prusiks are simple and lightweight and inexpensive. She said it was quick, easy and her setup has a footloop. Maybe I’ll shoot her your number and she can teach you how to prussik efficiently in case one day you forget or drop your fancy smart alpine.
It’s easy when you actually know how to do it right and take a little time to practice it.
There are many ways to jug a rope wirh all kinds of fancy gear. A couple of prusiks are simple and lightweight and inexpensive. She said it was quick, easy and her setup has a footloop. Maybe I’ll shoot her your number and she can teach you how to prussik efficiently in case one day you forget or drop your fancy smart alpine.
Rockklimber - to clarify, I agree that the mule-overhand is quick and easy and should be the default method for most scenarios. To be honest, I just pulled the one handed Klemheist out of my ass this weekend as a result of this thread.
I just threw it out there for others to try cuz I WAS amazed at how quick and easy it was, and I like training one handed cuz both of my own self rescue experiences involved only having one hand as my other arm was broken and dislocated.
Plus it is a bit “outside the box” and gets away from the “procedural” aspect and more to focusing on the goal - transferring the load. Many ways to skin the cat. Just another socket for the tool box if you’re so inclined - or only have one hand! Doesn’t replace the mule-overhand tie off.
Also to rgold’s and HB’s point, I think skills should be taught and studied in a more general and universal way and not as a separate or defined “thing” like “escaping the belay” where any specific procedure is defined.
It’s easy when you actually know how to do it right and take a little time to practice it.
There are many ways to jug a rope wirh all kinds of fancy gear. A couple of prusiks are simple and lightweight and inexpensive. She said it was quick, easy and her setup has a footloop. Maybe I’ll shoot her your number and she can teach you how to prussik efficiently in case one day you forget or drop your fancy smart alpine.
Mark Pilate wrote: Rockklimber - to clarify, I agree that the mule-overhand is quick and easy and should be the default method for most scenarios. To be honest, I just pulled the one handed Klemheist out of my ass this weekend as a result of this thread.
I just threw it out there for others to try cuz I WAS amazed at how quick and easy it was, and I like training one handed cuz both of my own self rescue experiences involved only having one hand as my other arm was broken and dislocated.
Plus it is a bit “outside the box” and gets away from the “procedural” aspect and more to focusing on the goal - transferring the load. Many ways to skin the cat. Just another socket for the tool box if you’re so inclined - or only have one hand! Doesn’t replace the mule-overhand tie off.
Also to rgold’s and HB’s point, I think skills should be taught and studied in a more general and universal way and not as a separate or defined “thing” like “escaping the belay” where any specific procedure is defined.
I see your points but is it truly a one handed klemheist? I mean, you still have to brake with the other hand. Isnt just as easy to tie off the brake and tie the klemheist w 2 hands. I’ not sure why you would do it with “one hand” when you dont need to. In what scenario would you be belaying and then suddenly have to tie a klemheist one handed while braking with the other hand?
Yes, it is good to learn how to do things one handed. I practice many skills this way. And I agree that there are many ways to solve a problem. But getting hands free is pretty simple and requires only two simple knots and about 10 seconds.
So she used two prussiks to ascend? That's a pain in the ass. With a Smart Alpine she could have practically walked up the wall to fix the problem. Add in a purcell/prussik footloop for overhanging terrain, so for $35 more than the prussiks alot of time and hassle could have been saved.
Sure, that's a fine way to ascend. It also works with other pretty standard belay devices for multi-pitch like ATC guide or Reverso.
It should go without saying that ascending a rope, this way or any other way, is the sort of thing that needs practice. It's not easily or safely improvised.
Side note - you carry a pre-tied Purcell prusik? It's not going to save you time and hassle to tie this in the field, even if you are carrying a huge hank of cord. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGXvOS2M7GM
In general, I feel like everyone (well, mostly everyone) is agreeing in this thread that there are a set of skills (getting out of a belay, transferring a load, ascending a rope, tandem rappel, mechanical advantage hauling systems) that are good to know and practice if you're going to be climbing anything more complex than single pitch with bolted anchors. If you know several ways to do each of these skills, all the better. Whether you call it "escaping the belay" or something else, this knowledge and practice will give you skill and comfort improvising and make you a better partner. It's not about going through the motions to execute by rote. It's about understanding the skills and systems and being able to make good choices.
I feel like this is an issue with anchor cleaning too. Many newer climbers learn a sequence of steps to clean a sport anchor, rather than understanding the concepts and options. Accidents happen when they mis-remember the sequence or skip a step, because they don't actually understand conceptually what they are doing or what is keeping them safe.
Accidents happen because they don't actually understand conceptually what they are doing or what is keeping them safe.
Fixed that for ya. Add in complacency, and it covers just about everything except true accidents, IMO.
The scariest accident that didn't happen? I think it's in "Africa Fusion", but Chin has a story of both climbers out of sight of each other. They are also out of sight, and unaware of, a rock fall that has cut their rope!
Technically, I have three tied prussiks on my harness. Two very short ones (one is my backup for rappel, the other an extra...people keep borrowing them, lol), and one Purcell. The Purcell acts as a leg loop, but it also serves rather well as my personal anchor.
Best, Helen
rgold
·
Jul 22, 2019
·
Poughkeepsie, NY
· Joined Feb 2008
· Points: 526
On the subject of using the components rather than the protocols, I've had multiple occasions to tie off a belay plate in order to get something to send up to a leader. Yes, you could put a catastrophe knot in the brake strand, but if the leader fell that knot would be jammed in the device and not releasable if the leader couldn't unweight the rope. The mule tie-off takes the same amount of time and converts instantly back to belay mode. I've also occasionally used a Munter Mule for certain belay-positioning tasks, where the stance I wanted to belay from was well below the anchor but on sketchy ground. My rope goes through a carabiner at the anchor and back to a Munter hitch on my harness, allowing me to self-belay/rappel to the desired postion. Once in place the Munter Mule establishes the anchor. Then to get back to the anchor the Munter gives a self-belay. This is all bursting through doors already open; plenty of folks know such tricks, but I mention them as an example of the collateral benefits of some sort of self-rescue knowledge.
As for prusiking, it makes sense to know how to do it with two prusik knots, so that you are ready for anything, say if you drop your belay gadget. But the gadget-on-the-harness method (with pulley assist) is the way to go if at all possible; any assisted-braking or guide plaquette device will work. Speaking of protocols, I do think it worth figuring out how to prusik from free-hanging position, as a second who has dropped or swung over an overhang will have to do; getting started can be unnecessarily strenuous if you don't tether to your high prusik in order to thread the harness device.
Sure, that's a fine way to ascend. It also works with other pretty standard belay devices for multi-pitch like ATC guide or Reverso.
It should go without saying that ascending a rope, this way or any other way, is the sort of thing that needs practice. It's not easily or safely improvised.
Side note - you carry a pre-tied Purcell prusik? It's not going to save you time and hassle to tie this in the field, even if you are carrying a huge hank of cord. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGXvOS2M7GM
In general, I feel like everyone (well, mostly everyone) is agreeing in this thread that there are a set of skills (getting out of a belay, transferring a load, ascending a rope, tandem rappel, mechanical advantage hauling systems) that are good to know and practice if you're going to be climbing anything more complex than single pitch with bolted anchors. If you know several ways to do each of these skills, all the better. Whether you call it "escaping the belay" or something else, this knowledge and practice will give you skill and comfort improvising and make you a better partner. It's not about going through the motions to execute by rote. It's about understanding the skills and systems and being able to make good choices.
I feel like this is an issue with anchor cleaning too. Many newer climbers learn a sequence of steps to clean a sport anchor, rather than understanding the concepts and options. Accidents happen when they mis-remember the sequence or skip a step, because they don't actually understand conceptually what they are doing or what is keeping them safe.
Yes, except I don't need the janky atc guide mode set up and I can rap down quickly without changing anything. The purcell is mostly my personal but really speeds things up if I need to ascend. I have also used it for all sorts of weird shit, it's damn handy.
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