Misogynistic and problematic route names in rock climbing

Dylan Colon wrote:

Here's a hypothetical then. In some places, like much of Europe and Indian Creek, it's common to actually write or carve the name of a route at its base. This is accepted behavior and let's assume Leave No Trace is not an issue. If someone puts in hours cleaning and/or bolting a route, spending their own money and time, and then decides to name the route "Hitler was right," would the community be acting most responsibly if they said "That's guy is an idiot," but left the route name, or would they be justified in removing it? I use this example because while you can't erase the general idea of a route name, this is just a more concrete example of the same issue. To be honest in my view I just crafted a compelling argument to end the practice of carving route names in rocks at the base, but I'd be interested in other people's thoughts

1. Carving route names in stone in Indian Creek is an abomination representing the very worst of our community.

2. Hate Speech is a Thing and is never acceptable. Lauding a man responsible for the deaths of millions of human beings is not the same as the simple adolescent vulgarity of some route names.

 then decides to name the route "Hitler was right,"

Quickly solved by putting up an adjacent climb or a link up climb called.

"handed, and a effin idiot."

:-p

Optimistic wrote:

Where I part company is RENAMING a route without the permission of the FA. In my view when you do that, you've gone from refusing to participate in something that you find offensive to erasing someone else's (in this case, lousy) ideas. I think that's a violation of free speech, but it's also really childish. Unpleasant people and ideas exist, and restricting how people can express themselves doesn't change that. Good ideas are the (Constitutionally protected) way to overcome bad ideas.

There is no protected right for FA to name their routes and there is plenty of historical precedent for route names being changed - either deliberately (i.e. Astroman) or through community change (shorthand, changes in popularity, etc.). Like you pointed in the start of your post, you are not obligated to repeat the name the first ascentionist proposed: it is only a small step further to accept that the FA name suggestion is just that, and there is nothing related to the protection of speech that would have us obligated to retain that name in perpetuity. There is no harm to the First Ascent team that the community rejected it - they are free to continue putting up routes and proposing bad names. 

Climbers often like to think of climbing as a creative exercise, but there are not indelible names attached to geography.

*edited for "roots"

FosterK wrote:

There is no protected right for FA to name their routes and there is plenty of historical precedent for route names being changes - either deliberately (i.e. Astroman) or through community change (shorthand, changes in popularity, etc.). Like you pointed in the start of your post, you are not obligated to repeat the name the first ascentionist proposed: it is only a small step further to accept that the FA name suggestion is just that, and there is nothing related to the protection of speech that would have us obligated to retain that name in perpetuity. There is no harm to the First Ascent team that the community rejected it - they are free to continue putting up roots and proposing bad names. 

Climbers often like to think of climbing as a creative exercise, but there are not indelible names attached to geography.

Tell that to mt. Rushmore or whitney etc.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Tell that to mt. Rushmore or whitney etc.

Actually those are perfect examples - both have had name changes, illustrating that there are not indelible names attached to geography.

Mark Roberts wrote:

Actually those are perfect examples - both have had name changes, illustrating that there are not indelible names attached to geography.

You have that exactly backwards. 

Masterful troll?

Retronaming routes to bring them up to your level is wrong. If you want a PC route name put up your own route. 

Consider that there are (potentially) offensive names in many other domains:

So, I know that this topic hasn’t been visited in awhile, but I get reminded of it every time I go to Panty Wall. I go there more often this time of year, because it is shady in the morning and I can get in a lot of mileage TR soloing.

I find it curious that the subject of the CBC News interview that the OP sited, Jennifer Wigglesworth, was inspired enough by the route names at Panty Wall to begin searching for more “misogynistic and problematic route names,” and base her PhD dissertation on how “ the acceptance of these misogynistic route names is symptomatic of how we view women in climbing, and in society more broadly.”

While I don’t disagree that the realm of climbing route names is rife with insults to all walks of life and downright bad taste, I find it strange that she should find route names at Panty Wall misogynist and exclusionary to women.

Why, if one examines and compares the names it can be found that the route names there are equal opportunity underwear themed. There are Tighty Whities and Granny Panties. Brief Encounter and  Boxer Rebellion are more masculine theme underwear names.

I must admit to initially being put off by the name Sacred Undergarment Squeeze Job, being ignorant of the meaning of both squeeze job with reference to close climbing routes, and sacred undergarments ( which apparently can be found in styles for both sexes.) I am somewhat less taken aback than I was originally now that I recognize the double entendre, though I can understand those of LDS persuasion taking issue.

And for bad taste candidate, there is Panty Shield, which is in such bad taste, I used to see ads for it on tv rather frequently, back when I watched tv.

While I agree that exclusion and disempowerment of women and minorities is a pertinent issue in our time, I find Ms. Wigglesworth’s sensitivity to the mentioning of underwear at a cliff that is shaped like a pair of bikini bottoms puzzling.

If all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.

cassondra l wrote:Like the old addage:
If all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.

You could not have wrapped up that post more perfectly.

What about the grand teton, shall we change that!

Some routes are really obnoxious and have poor poor names, these i leave off my resume.

But i do want to name a volcanic rock route "tuft titty" i do think its a good pun

Naw, I'll take a PhD over some rube from Kansas any day. At least someone with training has proved they can learn.

But, this concept of a fixed perspective introducing bias is real in every field and human endeavor.

As the old saying goes, "I've never met a PhD who didn't need one."

Control the language and you control their thoughts.
-Abraham Lincoln, probably. 

Brother Numsie wrote: Control the language and you control their thoughts.
-Abraham Lincoln, probably. 

I think it might be Orwell.

Me when devising route names

Wow. Just wow. I read the whole thing. Clearly the comments were largely from the ruling class (white males) who have enjoyed privilege their entire pathetic lives and have no empathy for classes of people -- such as women -- who have been systematically discriminated against. I cringe at the state of our society where bigotry is now disguised and/or justified in terms such as "free speech" and "first amendment rights." Vulgar names just show how childish the first ascentionist was. But misogynist names have the power to hurt people and make them feel unwelcome. It is not only bad for women, it's bad for all of us.

Confederate flags and confederate statues are finally being removed from places in the south. Sports mascots that demean American Indians are being renamed. I want to believe our community is kind and inclusive enough to do this for names that systematically make a group of people feel unwelcome.

I always enjoyed the intellectual references to sciences and art and philosophy that were so much more common in route names in the 60s and 70s. 

I'm certainly not in favor of aggressive language policing, but we have to let this free speech/censorship thing go. As has been exhaustively covered, the first amendment right to free speech means that the government can never make a law that restricts what you can say or write. Censorship refers to suppressing communication that's considered objectionable by a government or private organization.

Neither of those is what's being proposed here. Communities draw up codes of conduct all the time, and those codes often include things roughly equivalent to "don't be a dick to other people" — and that includes what you say. That's not infringing on your first amendment rights. It's just a community saying that if you're a jerk, you can leave. We have implicit social rules that run along similar lines, especially with racially charged rhetoric. At their worst, "free speech" arguments get ridiculously circular — something akin to "You can't discriminate against my right to discriminate."

In this case, a community deciding to drop a name that someone gave a rock isn't infringing on anyone's first amendment rights. Neither is it censorship. You're free to name it that. Everyone else is also free to not call it that.

Whether or not that's warranted here is up for discussion. Every community gets to decide what its values are. MP doesn't seem to be a particularly good place for it though, except for the universal value of black totems.

I'm all for cleverness and humor in route names. There are probably some names worth forgetting, but there are probably also more pressing issues that we could be focusing on.

Willis K wrote: the first amendment right to free speech means that the government can never make a law that restricts what you can say or write.

Actually it doesn't even say that. There are many laws restricting things you can say or write, and those laws are totally uncontroversial. Examples are laws against libel, fraud, incitement of violence, child pornography, false advertising, perjury, etc.