Tricams in Horizontals: fulcrum up or down?

Dear Tricam Aficionados:

If my primary concern is not abrasion on the sling, but rather the stability and the strength of the placement (expecting to whip on it), what is better in a horizontal crack or pocket: to place the tricam with fulcrum point up or fulcrum point down, assuming I have a similarly shaped dish or depression for the fulcrum on both the top and bottom rock?  

Does the best option change if the rock is soft or if the placement is either tight or loose of perfect?

Thanks!

I like fulcrum down more because gravity helps stabilize the piece. Fulcrum up seems like it could loosen under its own weight if not set hard

Generally the wider part on the bottom will provide more stability - that holds true for pyramids as well as tricams.

Of course that depends on overall placement quality - sometimes the inner lobe/fulcrum may just fit better the other way....

I try fulcrum down 1st. I am looking for irregularities that the tricam can wedge into place on.  If I don't find a position with fulcrum down, then I try fulcrum up.  I am trying to get it to set like a nut so the rope motion does not unseat it.  I don't think it makes much difference strength wise although with fulcrum down the webbing is running along the slot rather than against the rock so there might be less wear on the webbing.

 Fulcrum down 99% of the time. 

David Bruneau wrote: I like fulcrum down more because gravity helps stabilize the piece. Fulcrum up seems like it could loosen under its own weight if not set hard

I'm not sure I would agree with that. I'm not the most avid user of tricam that being said.

The thing is that if you do whip on it, wider at the bottom is more stable. If the rock is soft and you're worried it may rip, fulcrum down seems like it would focus more force on a smaller surface (therefore put more pressure on the rock at that point increasing the likelihood it will rip and potentially rip out).

If you're worried it'll move, extension is an option.

Of course, depends on the specifics of the rock, it may happen to fit better the other way around.

edit:

These guys seem to say who cares

It's a trade off.

Stinger (my name for the fulcrum) up means that the placement will be more stable in the rock, kind of like placing a TCU with the two lobes down so it walks less.

Stinger down will hold the piece in place more easily with gravity as others said above.

If it's a super bomber placement and it locks in easily, then I go stinger up. Otherwise I go stinger down. Another consideration would be that it's easier to clean a stinger up placement from below and you can see it better.

Stinger down for me but honestly that's the only way I ever try cause up scares me :-)

It's all about whichever way the crack suits the piece i.e. use the feature that secures the fulcrum. If you disregard this, you're setting yourself up for a bad surprise. "Stability" with rails down/fulcrum up is a total myth - it's physically impossible for a 3 point-contact Tricam to tip over in a crack.  As a marginal benefit, fulcrum down might elevate the webbing to provide less bend over the edge. Given the proven durability of Tricams, I say that benefit is of negligible value.

I manage to place a pink tricam in a horizontal on ~80% of trad pitches I climb and I've never found a good fulcrum up placement. Maybe it's the way the rock near me weathers, but theres never as good of a divot or irregularity to set the fulcrum against on the top of the horizontal as on the bottom.

I don't think I've ever even THOUGHT about a fulcrum up placement!  Fulcrum down just seemed (to me) to be the way they were designed to be used.

BUT...now I've got something else to think about.

Thanks for the thread.

Dr. Ake wrote: 
Stinger (my name for the fulcrum) up means that the placement will be more stable in the rock, kind of like placing a TCU with the two lobes down so it walks less.

"Fulcrum" is Camps's official name for the single point on the tricams whereas they use "Stingers" to designate the two points at the ends of the cam rails so it's best to stick with Fulcrum to avoid confusion.

Like the majority here, I prefer fulcrum down if I can find a nice asperity to anchor the fulcrum on.

Looking for more info on this I found this Camp USA document, which states:

" (in horizontal cracks) use the sling up orientation when you can. It will not
expose the webbing to sharp edges or abrasion so it will increase the lifespan and engages solid camming action
whether the sling is being tugged upward (as with rope drag during upward progression) or downward (in the event
of a fall). Sling down will perform best in the middle of true traverse where the climber continues past the piece in a
horizontal progression. Place the cam so the webbing comes out of crack on the same side of the cam as the direction
of the continued progression. There are no hard and fast rules for sling down versus sling up in horizontal cracks. Things
to watch for include sharp edges, flares and the ability to set the cam."

The "engages solid camming action" part aligns well with my own intuitive perception. With the fulcrum down, the weight of the tricam sling and the quickdraw clipped to it hangs more directly from the top of the tricam, "engaging the camming action" and helping keeping the fulcrum in place, which is the most critical aspect of the placement.

With the fulcrum down (EDIT: oops I meant "up", not "down" here), the sling makes a sharper bend over the bottom edge of the crack, preventing the weight of the slings from getting transmitted to the tricam. I guess that this also means that in fulcrum up placements, sideways tugs are also less easily transmitted to the tricam, which is a good thing in a traverse, as stated by Camp.

jktinst wrote:

"Fulcrum" is Camps's official name for the single point on the tricams whereas they use "Stingers" to designate the two points at the ends of the cam rails so it's best to stick with Fulcrum to avoid confusion.

Like the majority here, I prefer fulcrum down if I can find a nice asperity to anchor the fulcrum on.

Looking for more info on this I found this Camp USA document, which states:

" (in horizontal cracks) use the sling up orientation when you can. It will not
expose the webbing to sharp edges or abrasion so it will increase the lifespan and engages solid camming action
whether the sling is being tugged upward (as with rope drag during upward progression) or downward (in the event
of a fall). Sling down will perform best in the middle of true traverse where the climber continues past the piece in a
horizontal progression. Place the cam so the webbing comes out of crack on the same side of the cam as the direction
of the continued progression. There are no hard and fast rules for sling down versus sling up in horizontal cracks. Things
to watch for include sharp edges, flares and the ability to set the cam."

The "engages solid camming action" part aligns well with my own intuitive perception. With the fulcrum down, the weight of the tricam sling and the quickdraw clipped to it hangs more directly from the top of the tricam, "engaging the camming action" and helping keeping the fulcrum in place, which is the most critical aspect of the placement.

With the fulcrum down, the sling makes a sharper bend over the bottom edge of the crack, preventing the weight of the slings from getting transmitted to the tricam. I guess that this also means that in fulcrum up placements, sideways tugs are also less easily transmitted to the tricam, which is a good thing in a traverse, as stated by Camp.

Awesome. Thanks for the education!