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Who's buying this crap?

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

Julian H, do you really not understand the process of how China undercuts companies by making knock-offs of products and then marketing them to the same customers that buy the originals? The real Revolver runs around $35. There is no way that price could be brought down to $9 and a profit still be made, given that there are many more parts to a revolver than a standard carabiner. This particular design was no doubt chosen as it's more interesting, but also because the regular price is quite high. Say China wanted to produce a knock-off regular carabiner and sell it for $3 instead of $7. Yeah, not a lot of profit there. Get it now?

David Bruneau · · St. John · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 2,520

You'd have to test more than one for me to trust them... 

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265

Fuck all this noise. Are we blowing up a Chinese knock-off carabiner or what?

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

For $20 I'll offer up my nearly-unused GENUINE DMM locking Revolver for testing alongside the knock-off.

CD Transporter · · Boise, ID · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 16

It is perfectly rational to be cautious about gear that you will be trusting to save your life. Unsafe gear is (obviously) a bad idea. Also, if it is going to mess with your mental game, just stick to the brands you trust. Saving a few bucks is not worth your peace of mind.

When I first saw a DMM Revolver, I was curious about it, but not nearly curious enough to spend $40 on one. About a year later, I DID spend $10 to try the knock-off version. So, I guess that I am one of those scary people buying the crap, ha.

After trying it, it turns out that the design works really well to reduce rope drag before and after a traverse. I still think that $40 is asking too much for what it is, unless you are doing a lot of climbs where it would be useful. And, in that case, maybe it would be better to just use twin ropes.

Would I take a fall on it? Yes. No problem. I climbed on it this last weekend: #4 BD cam <-> small locker <-> 120cm Metolius sling <-> knock-off Revolver carabiner. I was a lot more worried about the rope potentially causing the cam to walk around than I was about the carabiner failing, but the long extension and pully meant that the cam didn't wiggle at all.

Would I use it as the master point in an anchor? No. I wouldn't use a Camp Nano either.

"Made in China" doesn't necessarily mean that it's crap. I also have an ascender, some harnesses, and a pile of lockers from the Chinese brand Xinda... the quality seems good. Zero problems with any of it. That said, there are some things that are definitely outside of my own comfort zone. Like, I would not trust a no-name Chinese rope. I wouldn't trust a no-name cam either.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

So someone “in the know” please confirm that BD makes the gear back in the USA now.

Most Chinese stuff is crap. I spent 35 years in Precision Industrial Bearing field. 25 working for FAG... no jokes please.
To save money they use substandard metals and cut corners. As the Chinese started to gain larger market share I and my associates ran into these hurdles- mostly this: “why should I pay you folks $1,200 each for that bearing when “Long March” will sell me the exact same bearing for $350”?
Being a good sales engineer, I would never run down the competitors product and would only point out the top quality of the FAG bearing.
The bearing I’m thinking of is commonly used on big ass drilling rigs and someone who uses my bearing could expect about 3 years of hard constant use. So I lost a annual contact that we had been getting for 30 years, my German boss Hans told me to not worry- “Chevron will be back soon - and it will be an emergency- ya?”
They were back soon... it seems the Chinese stuff lasted like 30 days then experienced catastrophic failure to a rig, causing substantial damage and cost. So the bottom line is this: how much is your life worth?? I find it is best to ask yourself this question when at a hanging belay, a 1,000 feet up with a 150 lb haul bag, you might have a different opinion then when shopping at REI.

Climb on

Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45
Guy Keesee wrote: So someone “in the know” please confirm that BD makes the gear back in the USA now.

Most Chinese stuff is crap. I spent 35 years in Precision Industrial Bearing field. 25 working for FAG... no jokes please.
To save money they use substandard metals and cut corners. As the Chinese started to gain larger market share I and my associates ran into these hurdles- mostly this: “why should I pay you folks $1,200 each for that bearing when “Long March” will sell me the exact same bearing for $350”?
Being a good sales engineer, I would never run down the competitors product and would only point out the top quality of the FAG bearing.
The bearing I’m thinking of is commonly used on big ass drilling rigs and someone who uses my bearing could expect about 3 years of hard constant use. So I lost a annual contact that we had been getting for 30 years, my German boss Hans told me to not worry- “Chevron will be back soon - and it will be an emergency- ya?”
They were back soon... it seems the Chinese stuff lasted like 30 days then experienced catastrophic failure to a rig, causing substantial damage and cost. So the bottom line is this: how much is your life worth?? I find it is best to ask yourself this question when at a hanging belay, a 1,000 feet up with a 150 lb haul bag, you might have a different opinion then when shopping at REI.

Climb on

It sounds like you are significantly out of the loop.

Black Diamond opened and operated a factory in China, and had most of their metal climbing gear manufactured there for roughly a decade. During that time there were no recalls on the gear that came out of that factory.

A few years ago they shut down that factory and moved production back to North America, with virtually all the metal climbing gear being manufactured in their factory in Utah. In a very short period of time almost every product line that came out of that factory got recalled!

One could argue that BD's Made In China gear was superior (pale-colours in the anodization aside) to their Made In 'Murca gear.

You can confirm country of manufacture for yourself.

If Black Diamond's website doesn't list which country each product is manufactured in, then there are plenty of other online retailers that do list that information.

 www.mec.ca is one place that has that information.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

Khoi.... thanks for information, yes out of loop for years. I stopped buying BD mostly because of the callous treatment of long time workers by “the corporation” they axed many old friends who were climbers from Ventura, people who put their hearts and soul into making the best gear possible.
Don’t get me wrong- outstanding Chinese products do exist and you pay for it.
The USA makes tons of crappy products and I’m not surprised that many recalls happened and still do. IMHO it’s best to buy climbing gear made by climbers- people who appreciate just what is at stake.

Gerrit Verbeek · · Anchorage, AK · Joined Sep 2017 · Points: 0
Guy Keesee wrote: So someone “in the know” please confirm that BD makes the gear back in the USA now.

Most Chinese stuff is crap. I spent 35 years in Precision Industrial Bearing field. 25 working for FAG... no jokes please.
To save money they use substandard metals and cut corners. As the Chinese started to gain larger market share I and my associates ran into these hurdles- mostly this: “why should I pay you folks $1,200 each for that bearing when “Long March” will sell me the exact same bearing for $350”?
Being a good sales engineer, I would never run down the competitors product and would only point out the top quality of the FAG bearing.
The bearing I’m thinking of is commonly used on big ass drilling rigs and someone who uses my bearing could expect about 3 years of hard constant use. So I lost a annual contact that we had been getting for 30 years, my German boss Hans told me to not worry- “Chevron will be back soon - and it will be an emergency- ya?”
They were back soon... it seems the Chinese stuff lasted like 30 days then experienced catastrophic failure to a rig, causing substantial damage and cost. So the bottom line is this: how much is your life worth?? I find it is best to ask yourself this question when at a hanging belay, a 1,000 feet up with a 150 lb haul bag, you might have a different opinion then when shopping at REI.

Climb on

Nice story. Reminds me of this video. youtube.com/watch?v=RepARd6…;

Scurvy Dave · · Squamish · Joined May 2018 · Points: 0
Gerrit Verbeek wrote:

Nice story. Reminds me of this video. youtube.com/watch?v=RepARd6…;

Very circumstantial... Mechanical engineer, spent some time in china for work. The quality from of our chinese suppliers was far superior to any manufacturer we tried in canada or the states. You can buy junk anywhere. 


Re the story above,  a more expensive bearing from china would likely perform equally.
Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 16
David Ebel wrote:

Very circumstantial... Mechanical engineer, spent some time in china for work. The quality from of our chinese suppliers was far superior to any manufacturer we tried in canada or the states. You can buy junk anywhere. 


Re the story above,  a more expensive bearing from china would likely perform equally.

Second hand:  Friend imports industrial fasteners from Asia (Taiwan, Shenzhen etc.), and it is extremely common for him to have to eat a shipment due to QC issues. The Asian manufacturer will lowball the bid to get the order, and then make substitutions in the metallurgy/process to make a bigger profit, all without telling the customer. When it gets stateside and my friends QC catches it, there is no recourse other than to not use that manufacturer again. In a worst case scenario the product will fail after installation, and then the lawsuits start. Again, for a small business person, there is no recourse.

Josh · · Golden, CO · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 1,140
Daniel Winder wrote: Great store, I just picked some "2 pieces 1 pair of silicone bra pad push high breasts detachable bra fill insert cup swimsuit bikini nipple cover sticker patch9" only 95 cents. Thanks!

So many nouns...

Trad Man · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2018 · Points: 0
CD Transporter wrote: ... I DID spend $10 to try the knock-off version. So, I guess that I am one of those scary people buying the crap, ha.

...

Would I use it as the master point in an anchor? No. I wouldn't use a Camp Nano either.
I'd rather use a Camp Nano for a master point, or frankly ANY purpose, than any knock-off anything. Why the hell would you give any credence to a "knock-off" revolver?! Do you have some magical ability to know the metallurgy by smell? Are you the biner whisperer?

Especially a revolver given that the ID on those bearings isn't going to be especially thick.

Great, now I'll have to inspect the gear of all my potential climbing partners and grill them on where they bought the shit. 
Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45
Guy Keesee wrote: Khoi.... thanks for information, yes out of loop for years. I stopped buying BD mostly because of the callous treatment of long time workers by “the corporation” they axed many old friends who were climbers from Ventura, people who put their hearts and soul into making the best gear possible.
Don’t get me wrong- outstanding Chinese products do exist and you pay for it.
The USA makes tons of crappy products and I’m not surprised that many recalls happened and still do. IMHO it’s best to buy climbing gear made by climbers- people who appreciate just what is at stake.

Looks like things are changing yet again.  


Black Diamond is doing a major overhaul of their carabiner lineup for 2020.  The majority of those biners are being made in Taiwan.

Metolius biners and a lot of Wild Country's current biner and cam lineup are also made in Taiwan.
Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45
Julian H wrote:

Did you see any at the trade shoe? 

Yes, I saw, and handled, all of Black Diamond's upcoming biners at Outdoor Retailer.

Layne Zuelke · · Baton Rouge, LA · Joined Mar 2019 · Points: 30

Bottom line is quality control is everything. You’ll find excellent products out of China and pathetic products from the US. And vice versa. There are likely many bomber biners and ascenders etc from China. The problem is that without regular testing and certification it’s impossible to know what is a quality product and what isn’t. All aluminum is not created equal. Given that the savings are not that great, I’ll stick to brands I trust. Especially in a game where failure can easily mean death. 

Philip Nesbitt · · UT · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 147
Cereal Killer wrote: If you guys get the $10 together and  buy one I'll cover pull testing. HD video and graphed results. You can have it shipped direct to the place I use if you don't trust me for forward it.

Shit like this makes me not want to use my real dmm revolver for fear someone will see it, be curious and go buy this... 

So is this happening ? 

NegativeK · · Nevada · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 40
Philip Nesbitt wrote:

So is this happening ? 

"Don't expect it to get here from the slow boat for 6-8 weeks."

Plus wait time for pull testing.

Breeeeeeath.

Trad Man · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2018 · Points: 0

What's the over-under on this thing surviving 22kn?

Stihl Born · · Ohio · Joined Feb 2018 · Points: 0

Update, surprisingly it's arrived already! Just showed up yesterday and I'm posting from B.F.E. Kentucky from my families vacation rental now and didn't get it forwarded to climbing innovations before I left. I'll send it once I return to reality on the 8th.

I will say; it does look pretty damn good, scarry good... I bet this one survives 22kn but that's not really saying much, anyone can get lucky and pump out a good part once in a while... It's consistency and QC that's the issue. Plus IP rights. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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