Onlooker's Responsibility

Sloppy Second wrote: I would like to hear someone say "did you mean to hang that quickdraw upside down?" without sounding condescending AF.

Come climb at the red. We can deliberately go to a crag frequented by newer climbers, and you might get to see it in action.

No promises though, statistically it is not very likely, because I think I had only asked this question once, when addressing perfect strangers. There might have been a few times when it was someone I was climbing with, not a stranger, but not my regular partner, either. But in that case, I don't ask it as a question. If they are hanging my draw, I'd just ask them to flip the draw over, if I saw them clipping it upside down, and they were in an easy section. That has happened, and people have flipped the draw over without an objection, comment, or further discussion. If it had bothered them, they sure were good at hiding it, and for some reason kept climbing with me after that day. I wouldn't ask someone to fiddle with a draw if they were cruxing, obviously. And if the draw was high up and I didn't see/notice it until I were climbing, I would just flip the draw myself, if it were convenient. Has happened once or twice... we are talking maybe couple instances of this, over my climbing lifetime.

Full disclosure: I have also used a sling with two biners to make an extended draws and reduce a rope drag, more than once, and have not lost sleep over the fact that it was just a sling with two biners, and not a quickdraw. I happen to have couple of draws like that with me when I go sport climbing.

The one time I asked perfect strangers about upside-down draw I remember quite well. The people were obviously very new. But they were friendly, polite, and gracious. They asked for an explanation, and the climber flipped the draw over when lowering, for the next climber in his group. We continued to have a pleasant day, and chatted about a variety of things, both climbing and non-climbing-related, as we climbed next to them. At the end of the day I also showed them how to use a stick clip to remove a draw. Also falls under category of not-essential. Sure, I could have minded my own business, and then retrieved the "booty" they left, because none of them had the strength left at the end of the day to climb the route again, so they were contemplating just leaving the two lower draws, and coming back the next day. But I thought that stepping in and taking their draws off for them was a nice thing to do. I'm sure you are now wondering how someone can step in and offer to demonstrate the use of a stick-clip without looking like a complete show-off...

Lena chita wrote:

Come climb at the red. We can deliberately go to a crag frequented by newer climbers, and you might get to see it in action.

No promises though, statistically it is not very likely, because I think I had only asked this question once, when addressing perfect strangers. There might have been a few times when it was someone I was climbing with, not a stranger, but not my regular partner, either. But in that case, I don't ask it as a question. If they are hanging my draw, I'd just ask them to flip the draw over, if I saw them clipping it upside down, and they were in an easy section. That has happened, and people have flipped the draw over without an objection, comment, or further discussion. If it had bothered them, they sure were good at hiding it, and for some reason kept climbing with me after that day. I wouldn't ask someone to fiddle with a draw if they were cruxing, obviously. And if the draw was high up and I didn't see/notice it until I were climbing, I would just flip the draw myself, if it were convenient. Has happened once or twice... we are talking maybe couple instances of this, over my climbing lifetime.

Full disclosure: I have also used a sling with two biners to make an extended draws and reduce a rope drag, more than once, and have not lost sleep over the fact that it was just a sling with two biners, and not a quickdraw. I happen to have couple of draws like that with me when I go sport climbing.

The one time I asked perfect strangers about upside-down draw I remember quite well. The people were obviously very new. But they were friendly, polite, and gracious. They asked for an explanation, and the climber flipped the draw over when lowering, for the next climber in his group. We continued to have a pleasant day, and chatted about a variety of things, both climbing and non-climbing-related, as we climbed next to them. At the end of the day I also showed them how to use a stick clip to remove a draw. Also falls under category of not-essential. Sure, I could have minded my own business, and then retrieved the "booty" they left, because none of them had the strength left at the end of the day to climb the route again, so they were contemplating just leaving the two lower draws, and coming back the next day. But I thought that stepping in and taking their draws off for them was a nice thing to do. I'm sure you are now wondering how someone can step in and offer to demonstrate the use of a stick-clip without looking like a complete show-off...

If I saw someone using a sling with two biners I would definitely say something. That's a quickdraw with one end upside down!

1 I watch the climber and belayer to see if they seem to know what they are doing and I judge whether to get involved.
2 I don't make suggestions unless I see imminent danger e.g. a guy back clipped and his 3 partners did not notice so I mentioned it (not critical). He fixed it and he then immediately Z clipped (critical since he would have decked). I mentioned that he had Z clipped. He fixed it. He didn't thank me but wasn't obnoxious either.
2a When I see someone who is obviously in trouble, I will either comment or tell the belayer. Some are grateful, some ignore me, but I don't think anyone has been rude to me for that
3 When I see people who don't seem to know what they are doing, I don't make suggestions right away. If I do anything, it will usually be to ask, "Can I give you/Would you like a safety tip" and almost always get a positive reply followed by gratitude. I am an old guy and maybe people figure that perhaps I know what I am doing (lots of my partners are or were guides and I do know some safety procedures). It might also be my approach as not being condescending but just being friendly and helpful. I think attitude is critical as is motivation in saying anything
4 When there is imminent danger esp to me and my partner, I will comment. If the climber is an a--hole or makes a nasty or know-it-all reply, I simply move far away
5 Different policies: Many Europeans use a single biner as a top anchor (sport climbing). I tell them that I am used to using 2 biners and no one has refused to use two after that; belay hand up or down-I don't comment; many other examples
6 Darwinian selection can work in the climbing world. The only top climber I knew who is now dead was a fanatic about safety when climbing with me as a beginner but he made a dumb mistake. I wish someone had confronted him

L Kap wrote: Same principle, yes. No decent bolter would bolt 20 feet apart on a short sport climb. The climber got off route and ran it out too far out with tragic consequences. If he had been trad climbing and could have placed gear where he wanted, it would have been reckless to run it out that far. 

The belayer estimated that the climber was 20 feet above the last bolt and fell 60 feet to the ground. That implies 20 feet of some combination of slack and/or rope stretch. In my experience, too many trad leaders are too casual about the cascade of risk factors involved in running it out...slack / belayer error, rope stretch, ledges and other features, pendulums, pieces pulling, the unexpected foot slip or surprised wildlife, etc. Peter Croft tells a great story about being chased by an angry bat up a crack he was soloing. And the same bat tried to pick him off again as he was down-soloing. 

I don't talk to everyone I see running it out at the crag - is unlikely to be helpful. But happy to talk about it on mp and with my own partners. Place more pro, save a life.

The guy wasn't reckless, he made a bad decision. The whole point is don't make bad decisions because your helmet or extra gear on your harness isn't going to save you.

If we are talking about speaking up, here is me speaking up. Yourself and JV seem blissfully unaware of what will actually get you killed or keep you safe. Running it out or not wearing a helmet isn't inherently unsafe, unsafe is climbing without using your head, ignoring abstract risks and relying on gear 100%.

My sneaking suspicion is that Mr No Helmet and Mr Runout are on top of their game and should be the ones speaking up to you.

Do ya see how I turned your judgement around on to you?!

TR Fellhung wrote: Other than possibly being more difficult to clip, how is an upside down quickdraw a safety issue?

its not. I will flip the biner upside down to make sure the gate is not facing the rock.

Tradiban wrote:

The guy wasn't reckless, he made a bad decision. 

Reread the above. I said if he had been trad leading and had the option to place gear, but chose to run it out 20 feet instead, that would have been reckless. Yes, he made a poor decision, misjudged his fall potential, and it cost him his life.

 don't make bad decisions because your helmet or extra gear on your harness isn't going to save you.

I agree with this. Nobody said go forth and get stupid because gear will save you. I think I've been pointing out pretty consistently that gear fails. Which is why redundancy (placing more pro than the bare minimum) is important. 

If we are talking about speaking up, here is me speaking up. Yourself and JV seem blissfully unaware of what will actually get you killed or keep you safe. 

Read the accident reports. Look at the analysis. The data are pretty clear that inadequate placement of protection contributes to little mistakes becoming severe injuries or fatalities. I'm not aware of any safety courses that recommend "be more confident and never make mistakes" vs. "protect a route wisely and adequately".

Running it out or not wearing a helmet isn't inherently unsafe, 

Depends on what you mean by unsafe. I would say "unwise as a default practice".

unsafe is climbing without using your head, ignoring abstract risks and relying on gear 100%.

We agree on this. It isn't the only way to be unsafe, but it is one way to be unsafe.

My sneaking suspicion is that Mr No Helmet and Mr Runout are on top of their game and should be the ones speaking up to you.

I learn a lot from other climbers. I'm sure that I can learn something from most people, even if it's an example of what not to do.

You have the potential to be an interesting foil, tradi, but single-minded trolling is tedious.

I primarily want to be part of the chorus of voices who care about safety above ego, and am perfectly happy to support other climbers who are safety minded. I cheer us all on to take the classes, read the books, watch the YouTube demos, debate with other climbers, get outside as often as possible, learn from people who are better than you, develop expertise, practice self-rescue before we need it, make good choices. And place pro - it saves lives.

Old lady H wrote: On my end, on another trip, I met a friend, a climbing partner who had moved out of town. When I got to the anchors, after an easy lead, I stuffed a bight of rope through, tied an 8 on a bight, clipped in, untied my tie in, and asked to be lowered. More to it, but that's the short version.

I, noob that I am, got to show this dear friend something that will be remembered and passed on.

As it should be done, IMO.

Best, Helen

OLH..... dang! I recall your early posting.... you sure have come a long long way! Congratulations! 

To the OP... yes if ya see something bogus going on please step in and say something. But be sure of what you are seeing. JV.... maybe thinks no helmet, running it out etc is unsafe- he is entitled to his opinion. 
I once was getting ready to climb, a group of HS students showed up at the base. One put on his boots and exclaimed that they stuck to everything! He was so new and green with total enthusiasm! He started soloing the Shadow, a tricky 5.7 with ez bottom and a somewhat awkward crux much higher.... his friends encouraged him to “go for it”.... that’s when I stepped in and told him “If you don’t come down NOW I will climb up there and kick your ass- before you kill yourself AND I and everyone here will be the ones who pack your broken/dead butt out- And that will fuck up my day.” ..... when the teachers/guides got their I watched that kid take a flyer- on TR! We made eye contact as I was leaving.... I’m glad I said something. So please speak up, it’s the way. 

L Kap wrote: Reread the above. I said if he had been trad leading and had the option to place gear, but chose to run it out 20 feet instead, that would have been reckless. Yes, he made a poor decision, misjudged his fall potential, and it cost him his life.

I agree with this. Nobody said go forth and get stupid because gear will save you. I think I've been pointing out pretty consistently that gear fails. Which is why redundancy (placing more pro than the bare minimum) is important. 

Read the accident reports. Look at the analysis. The data are pretty clear that inadequate placement of protection contributes to little mistakes becoming severe injuries or fatalities. I'm not aware of any safety courses that recommend "be more confident and never make mistakes" vs. "protect a route wisely and adequately".

Depends on what you mean by unsafe. I would say "unwise as a default practice".

We agree on this. It isn't the only way to be unsafe, but it is one way to be unsafe.

I learn a lot from other climbers. I'm sure that I can learn something from most people, even if it's an example of what not to do.

You have the potential to be an interesting foil, tradi, but single-minded trolling is tedious.

I primarily want to be part of the chorus of voices who care about safety above ego, and am perfectly happy to support other climbers who are safety minded. I cheer us all on to take the classes, read the books, watch the YouTube demos, debate with other climbers, get outside as often as possible, learn from people who are better than you, develop expertise, practice self-rescue before we need it, make good choices. And place pro - it saves lives.

Ok,  now that I have convinced you that I'm right, it's JV's turn to skin the cat.

Guy Keesee wrote: I once was getting ready to climb, a group of HS students showed up at the base. One put on his boots and exclaimed that they stuck to everything! He was so new and green with total enthusiasm! He started soloing the Shadow, a tricky 5.7 with ez bottom and a somewhat awkward crux much higher.... his friends encouraged him to “go for it”.... that’s when I stepped in and told him “If you don’t come down NOW I will climb up there and kick your ass- before you kill yourself AND I and everyone here will be the ones who pack your broken/dead butt out- And that will fuck up my day.” ..... when the teachers/guides got their I watched that kid take a flyer- on TR! We made eye contact as I was leaving.... I’m glad I said something. So please speak up, it’s the way. 

That's a wild story. This may have been a while back, but I think this soloing trend is going to be popular for a while thanks to Superman flying up Freerider. They really did a shit job on that movie, generally, but also with the attempt, or lack of attempt, to put his relentless effort and dedication into becoming a flawless beast into perspective. He was once asked in an interview, if he had a kid that got into soloing, if he'd be against it. He laughed and said that if they worked their balls off like he did then he would support them. The younger generation is all adderall fueled and addicted to their phones, far from prepared for the mental endurance of soloing. 

Side note- no more adderall in youth comps!