an unexplained accident

John Vanek wrote:

Regardless of the device used, trusting someone you don’t know to lower you should be a cause of concern. An easy way to protect yourself while being lowered is to attach an autoblock knot on the rope coming up from the ground and attaching this to your belay loop with a locker. I carry double length runners and this is one of their uses. If the person doing the lower loses control of the rope the autoblock locks off.

This technique would have made the difference in all of the theories put forth with the exception of a partial anchor failure. There are a lot of simple ways to increase your safety if you know them.

Again read more carefully!  In this case This was not an option,  as the other side of the rope was running up an adjoining route thru gear.....

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 IS ANYONE MISSING THAT a LONG ROPE WAS IN USE ?
& THAT THIS ROPE WAS RUNNING UP THROUGH GEAR, ON AN ADJACENT ROUTE, TO A GUNKS ANCHOR (AS MANY AS 3 ROUTES SHARE)
THEN THE 8 ON A BITE LOOP WAS TIED, A 'BIENER USED TO CLIP INTO THE BELAY LOOP OF THE LOWERING CLIMBER.
UN-LIKE A STRAIGHT UP & DOWN SLING-SHOT SYSTEM,WHERE THE WEIGHT OF THE CLIMBER IS A CONSTANT ON THE DEVICE & BELAYER...
 IN THIS CASE THE ABILITY TO FEEL A LIGHT-WEIGHT CLIMBER WILL BE DRASTICALLY REDUCED

Yes, what Fehim Hasecic,  posted below

neils wrote:the climber tied a fig 8 on a bight to a locker to belay loop on the non gear side of the rope.  initially they were going to tie into the end and pull up all the rope but it was an 80 meter rope and they decided to go with the bight.  it was confirmed there was enough rope on the ground to get them down.  they clipped in and weighted the anchor while on PAS.  taken tight from the ground they were lowered about 75 ft with no issue.  about 25 ft up from the ground they fell and the rope was running.  I was above on rappel watching.  Prior the fall it seems the climber had noticed rope of some sort in a crack - it may have been slack - it may have been tail off the bite - that is unknown.  

How long was the tail end on figure 8 bight? Couple of times during raps on low angle terrain my rope end got caught. I wasn’t able to yank it out even while hanging on it. I climbed up to it and the end was caught in the crack . What was holding it was the tape with info on the end of the rope.Depending on how long was the tail end, it’s possible that it got stuck in crack while allowing the climber to be lowered and then it just released.

Spaggett, Gotcha! wrote:

Taking the OPs accounts at face value (no belayer error, no rope observed running rapidly through device, etc), I think Mr. J A nailed it here.  

The remaining part I struggle with here is how the belayer couldn't tell the difference between the weight of a lowering climber (albeit, with some drag vs the weight of the rope only on the brake side of the Gri?  The only way you could build enough slack in the system above said rope jam for a 25+ ft fall is if it was only the rope weight left on the anchor.  Giving generous benefit of the doubt, this leads me to believe there was a lot of friction during the lower (i.e. jam) that progressively got worse, leading the belayer to be desensitized to it or disregard the anomaly altogether.

Proposed sequence:  lowering climber rope partially jammed slowing decent, belayer pulled Gri "wide open" taking braking hand off to keep feeding rope (this is the withheld detail), rope feed rate exceeded climber lowering rate until there was 15-20 ft of slack, then jam freed resulting in 25 ft fall crediting some stretch.

In any case, culpability still lies with the belayer by not recongizing and stopping when met with unexpected conditions.

This. 

I am confident the long tail off the bight is what got stuck causing the slack to accumulate on the lowering rope and then popped.  I don't recall how long it was, but too long.  It was a poor decision for the climber to be sent down on lower with that long tail.  That part was on me.  I sent the person down from the top.  The climber being lowered was the least experienced in the group.  Between myself and the two folks on the ground there were multiple decisions leading to this and much to be learned.   I don't know if there was anything the climber or the belayer could have done to prevent this...to notice the rope had gotten stuck prior to an issue and in the belay technique.  I wasn't there for any of that part.  I know the decision making process from forgetting the ATC (mistake, it happens) to deciding to go with the lower on an alternate rope instead of staying self sufficient (we had multiple options for doing this) or having our friends bring up an ATC as he was about to climb the adjacent climb (that was my initial decision, then we collectively decided to do the lower), then the decision to tie in on a bight instead of the rope end, then I left the long tail hanging.  After that I can't comment on what could have been done.

If I could change it and take my part back I would have done one of two things - lowered the climber from the top with my gri gri then I rap with the one ATC we had or rapped a single strand with the gri gri (several ways to do this) then the other climber raps on the ATC.  Once I communicated with my folks on the ground (the more experienced party) and I got the direction to do the lower off the bight I went with that and the decision was made.  I felt oh...this person is not as experienced at rapelling, the lower on an alternate rope is available - thats safe and fast...good choice.  Hindsight is 20 20.  As the climber clipped into the bight with the long tail I had kind of a feeling that was at minimum sloppy...but I kind of figured it will be fine...the likelihood and consequence of it getting stuck just didn't occur to me.  Lesson learned.  This very easily could have all gone 100% fine with no issues but then no learning would have happened.  It's a shame this person had to suffer a broken heel for that learning to take place.  I will ensure it won't be in vain.  The climber that got injured was my partner for the day and I didn't make the right decisions to get them down safely.  That's on me.  There were group decisions and dynamics that went into the final outcome but I certainly own my part of the responsibility as have the other two members of the group.  We all feel quite terrible on multiple levels.

I am grateful the innocent victim came out relatively unharmed compared to how it could have been.  I have come a long way in the time I have been climbing but there is always more to learn.  We all make mistakes - climbing is a high consequence activity and we all know that going in.  Even a guide hired to keep a client safe for the day knows mistakes can happen and crap can go wrong with the best of us.  I don't feel anyone here is inherently unsafe, negligent or anything like that.  There isn't much else to say. I knew this wasn't really unexplainable going in to this conversation and honestly what we came up with here is what I kind of thought had happened...I just couldn't quite articulate it.  There was quality feedback in this thread.  Thank you.

Good for you, neils.   Compared to your first post, this last one has the glow of clarity and acceptance.   Whatever caused the "pop" and "drop", it was kind of freaky.   The whole situation has that "bad smell" when things start to go sideways, albeit slowly and not always in an obvious way.    Dude at top with no belay device is weird enough, but then improvising something else got things going in the wrong direction.   The takeaway could be:  Keep Things Simple out there.

Steve "Crusher" Bartlett wrote: There's always an explanation. This actually sounds like something that happened to me once, I slipped unexpectedly and fell 25 feet into rocks (I was fine!) while following a pitch and with rope being taken in as normal. No extra slack. Belayer never noticed a thing. What happened was the pitch went went through a large angle and of course the rope followed this zigzag. When I slipped a piece pulled (the piece at the sharp angle) and a whole lot of slack was created. No one did anything wrong. The same effect can occur, while lowering, from the rope running around something like a flake or an arete that's not really in line with the fall line; at some point the rope may free itself and cause the person being lowered to suddenly fall some distance.

This effect is amplified by the dynamic nature of a climbing rope. Under bodyweight (lowering) the rope does not stretch much; but subjected to a larger force (a fall) the rope is designed to stretch, maybe quite a lot, in order to soften the impact on the person.

I think Crusher probably got it right.

It seems difficult for a stuck tail rope to cause a 25 foot drop.
If the climber is fully caught by the tail, there is no tension on the up rope (ie the rope going from belayer to anchor.)
The belayer is simply not going to keep paying out slack when nothing is pulling the rope up the route and it is puddling on the ground in front of him/her.
At least not 10 feet of slack! Perhaps enough to release tension and a bit more.
Maybe this is enough so that once the tail releases the combined few feet of slack and the rope stretch over 175 feet might drop someone 25 feet, but seems kind of far fetched.

More likely that the up rope was hooked on a flake or bulge and released, or a piece of gear on the up rope pulled.
In either case, potentially releasing a large amount of slack.

Regardless, best wishes to the injured party.

neils wrote: I am confident the long tail off the bight is what got stuck causing the slack to accumulate on the lowering rope and then popped. 

I usually rap instead of retie/lower when "cleaning" a single-pitch route (and yeah I know the AAC and others recommend lowering but I'm not interested in that debate.)

I have tried the retie/lower thing a few times and always felt that the long tail of the knot was a little weird. Sure you can tie it off somehow or stuff it in your shirt but most people seem to just let it hang and drag along.

It's interesting that it may have contributed to a real-world incident.

BillS wrote:

This one probably did - although there was 175 ft of rope stretch to release for the most of it, then draw a 100 foot arc for the rope to follow up to the top of the route.  No "rope puddle" needed to create the reported slack.  Taking all reported details into account, this is mostly on that belayer.

However for neils, that belayer was not in his party.  Therefore I agree most with his assessment that he should not have relied on these other people - who could well have been on their first day out ever - and instead set up to lower his own partner.

thank you - just another point of clarity - the "other party" was in our group - I know them well.  We were climbing as two groups of two, but we were a party of four.  So reaching out to them to use the rope on the adjacent climb set up for a TR and that belayer were all known quantities.  I just feel my partner at the time and I were on a climb together.  I could have and should have kept us a seperate unit - I made the call to reach out and say hey can you bring up my ATC when you come up..it then moved in to - hey use our rope to lower instead....

Neils - I haven't read every word of every posting in this thread,(but have read most)  so forgive if this has been answered.

In a couple of places you say things like ..." (the person being lowered) ..."fell" ...or ..."popped" . Was he/she downclimbing more than being lowered??  If so, it might have  been a case of the "least experienced belayer" playing out the rope too fast (i.e. too much), then when the climber "popped" and "fell" he/she instantly used up this extra slack; then plus rope stretch et.al. hit the ground.

Robert Hall wrote: Neils - I haven't read every word of every posting in this thread,(but have read most)  so forgive if this has been answered.

In a couple of places you say things like ..." (the person being lowered) ..."fell" ...or ..."popped" . Was he/she downclimbing more than being lowered??  If so, it might have  been a case of the "least experienced belayer" playing out the rope too fast (i.e. too much), then when the climber "popped" and "fell" he/she instantly used up this extra slack; then plus rope stretch et.al. hit the ground.

she was being lowered normal lower - with some hanging in space...HOWEVER - there was a point where she was at a ledge and stopped and maybe even noticed rope was in a crack (I am not sure on that) but did not have enough experience to know it might be an issue.  I think her pause at the ledge potentially contributed to the issue

BillS wrote:

This one probably did - although there was 175 ft of rope stretch to release for the most of it, then draw a 100 foot arc for the rope to follow up to the top of the route.  No "rope puddle" needed to create the reported slack.  Taking all reported details into account, this is mostly on that belayer.

However for neils, that belayer was not in his party.  Therefore I agree most with his assessment that he should not have relied on these other people - who could well have been on their first day out ever - and instead set up to lower his own partner.

The "drop" was 100% on the belayer, the change in load on any device with a redirect or lowering on a munter or device from the anchor should have been detected by the person on belay.

The fact that it was allowed to take place at all is 100% on neils.

I would suggest at the minimum neils learn the following if taking the role of group leader; Never let someone in your party lower or rap with a rope tail or anything else dangling that can get hung up or under foot. Learn to lower/belay using a munter. Learn to lower, rappel or belay without an atc or gri gri using a biner brake or wraps on a locker. Learn to check that everyone in the party has a belay/rappel device on them before leaving the ground.

Edited after reading other party was in the group, not strangers.

"Rope of some sort in a crack". I suspect this will lead you, or one of the speculators, like myself, to the reason for the fall. But I have to agree with Abandon Moderation. The gun never just goes off. Somebody always pulls the trigger. Somebody screwed up, and perhaps because of PTSD they don't remember what happened. IMHO. I wasn't there, so all I can do is speculate. But I think it's good to hash these things out. Even if the cause is never figured out, perhaps others in a similar situation will be extra careful and not make the same mistake your group did.

Bambuda Jambuda wrote:

The "drop" was 100% on the belayer, the change in load on any device with a redirect or lowering on a munter or device from the anchor should have been detected by the person on belay.

The fact that it was allowed to take place at all is 100% on neils.

I would suggest at the minimum neils learn the following if taking the role of group leader; Never let someone in your party lower or rap with a rope tail or anything else dangling that can get hung up or under foot. Learn to lower/belay using a munter. Learn to lower, rappel or belay without an atc or gri gri using a biner brake or wraps on a locker. Learn to check that everyone in the party has a belay/rappel device on them before leaving the ground.

Edited after reading other party was in the group, not strangers.

yes...funny thing is I do know how to do most of those things and had many options - I just went with the first thought - hey bring me my ATC - we were safe on a huge ledge just hanging out on a nice day - we had no issue just waiting the 15 mins.  Oh no do a lower on our rope - oh ok cool, sure.  Had we actually been alone I certainly would have, out of necessity, done something else.

Could the belayer see the climber all the way down?
Roughly how much “tail” was there hanging below the climber when they were lowering?

Thanks for opening this up to the group. It isn’t a typical scenario and is a good thought experiment that hopefully will help someone avoid an accident in the future.  

If I’m ever in that situation where I’m counting on someone to lower me that I don’t know (or who may be inexperienced) I’m gonna autoblock the strand that’s coming from the belayer. With that I’m glad there was not a serious injury. 

Sloppy Second wrote:

I usually rap instead of retie/lower when "cleaning" a single-pitch route (and yeah I know the AAC and others recommend lowering but I'm not interested in that debate.)

I have tried the retie/lower thing a few times and always felt that the long tail of the knot was a little weird. Sure you can tie it off somehow or stuff it in your shirt but most people seem to just let it hang and drag along.

It's interesting that it may have contributed to a real-world incident.

I think what you're describing is the ~5ft tail that is left from passing a bight through the anchor to lower off.  What I see neil describing is an entire pitch length of rope because the climber tied in at the top of a TR anchor to lower off when both ends were on the ground.  While yes the 5ft tail could be an issue and should be watched I don't think these are equivalent issues.

It's also possible to eliminate the 5ft tail by retying into the rope end and removing the fig8 after passing the bight+tail.

Per OP it was an 80 meter rope on a 100 foot pitch.
So the excess tail could have been as much as 60 feet, although probably less.

bus driver wrote: Could the belayer see the climber all the way down?
Roughly how much “tail” was there hanging below the climber when they were lowering?

Thanks for opening this up to the group. It isn’t a typical scenario and is a good thought experiment that hopefully will help someone avoid an accident in the future.  

i'd say at least 30 ft of tail, maybe a bit more - I do not know if he could see her all the way down but I am pretty sure mostly, but not for all of the climb, no.

"JSH wrote:As the climber clipped into the bight with the long tail I had kind of a feeling that was at minimum sloppy...but I kind of figured it will be fine...

I think aside from all the possible outcomes (tail stuck, etc.) a bigger lesson to learn here is that there are reasons for neatness.

Some are easily predictable -- a fig-8 on a new slippery rope has to be snug, or the end can slip through.  Some are less straightforward -- the EDK is perfectly safe unless there's a sloppy twist in it, then it capsizes at lower weights.  It should be obvious that making a clusterf*ck of an anchor is an invitation to trouble.  Neatness = clarity = safety.

In the bigger sense, though, being OCD about being "neat" or not sloppy, isn't just a character trait.  It is a component of the vigilance that we all should cultivate and keep up.  

Neils, props to you for your openness here."

yes - i looked at the tail and was like...that is sloppy...if nothing else its sloppy...my OCD guide friends would not approve, and typically I have a detail oriented person - I knew it wasn't best practice - I just did not remotely foresee what happened even being a possibility

Mark Andes wrote:

I think what you're describing is the ~5ft tail that is left from passing a bight through the anchor to lower off.  What I see neil describing is an entire pitch length of rope because the climber tied in at the top of a TR anchor to lower off when both ends were on the ground.  While yes the 5ft tail could be an issue and should be watched I don't think these are equivalent issues.

It's also possible to eliminate the 5ft tail by retying into the rope end and removing the fig8 after passing the bight+tail.

Yeah I didn't catch that it was the whole rope. 

One tidbit not mentioned I believe, flame me if it has been:  on lower angle terrain, it’s easy for the climber to deviate from the fall line, at least temporarily, causing the rope to zig zag somewhat.  Ultimately, gravity wins and this could result in the rope “pop” straightening the line putting excess slack in the system without notice leading to the scenario described by crusher and J Achey. 

It is best to remain in the fall line when being lowered. It’s common to see less experience climbers deviating from it leading to potential problems. 

A 25 foot freefall could easily cause serious injury or death. It sounds like there was some tension in the rope when the climber landed since he remained upright and was not seriously injured.