NEW Black diamond Z4

$70 sounds in-line with Fixe Aliens and Mastercams (assuming more range per cam than mastercams).  I'm anxious to see the reviews and how others compare them to C3's.  I'm nowhere near the skill level to need C3 size microcams, but I do appreciate the placement opportunities small cams like these open up on some of the routes I've done.

Jared Chrysostom wrote:

C4's and DMM Dragons (probably others?) go down to a 0.3 and have two axles. 

I'm well aware of that and I'm also aware of their failure mode. It's a very poor design. You're left with an extremely small thickness of metal in a under cam (tight) placement. This has been discussed in depth in the past.

The X4 uses an offset at the pivot in a .3 and doesn't suffer that problem. Personally I deformed a .4 in one fall. Now use aliens and totems for rattley fingers and below. 

Nick Drake wrote:
Still dual axle in the .4 size. Thin lobe. Dumb idea.

Nick Drake wrote: 

I'm well aware of that and I'm also aware of their failure mode. It's a very poor design. You're left with an extremely small thickness of metal in a under cam (tight) placement. This has been discussed in depth in the past.

The X4 uses an offset at the pivot in a .3 and doesn't suffer that problem. Personally I deformed a .4 in one fall. Now use aliens and totems for rattley fingers and below. 

I'm a bit confused. I've always understood double axle to be safer, since this design makes it impossible for the lobes to capsize (for lack of a better term) if the piece is undercammed and tipped out. Hence why all double-axle BD cams are rated for the mythical 'umbrella mode'. As far as I know the only reason single axles are used on the smallest sizes is that's necessary to make the head unit small enough.

What area are you referring to as having an 'extremely small thickness of metal'?

(btw I think in the quote above you may have meant 'overcammed' not under. Otherwise I'm even more confused- everyone I knows uses undercammed to refer to loose placements and overcammed to be very tight placements).

Thanks for the link, but you left out the best part:

 Black Diamond's Performance Lifestyle Approach Shoes !

Dan Africk wrote:
I'm a bit confused. I've always understood double axle to be safer, since this design makes it impossible for the lobes to capsize (for lack of a better term) if the piece is undercammed and tipped out. Hence why all double-axle BD cams are rated for the mythical 'umbrella mode'. As far as I know the only reason single axles are used on the smallest sizes is that's necessary to make the head unit small enough.

What area are you referring to as having an 'extremely small thickness of metal'?

(btw I think in the quote above you may have meant 'overcammed' not under. Otherwise I'm even more confused- everyone I knows uses undercammed to refer to loos placements and overcammed to be very tight placements). 

Possibly along the lines of this thread from last year: mountainproject.com/forum/t…

Nathan Sullivan wrote:   I'm nowhere near the skill level to need C3 size microcams, but I do appreciate the placement opportunities small cams like these open up on some of the routes I've done.

Get away from that thinking.  Your skill level shouldn’t dictate what gear you buy or use.  Ive places plenty of micro cams on easy routes.  

Nathan Sullivan wrote: $70 sounds in-line with Fixe Aliens and Mastercams (assuming more range per cam than mastercams).  I'm anxious to see the reviews and how others compare them to C3's.  I'm nowhere near the skill level to need C3 size microcams, but I do appreciate the placement opportunities small cams like these open up on some of the routes I've done.

Up in squamish there's plenty of 5.6 routes up the slabs that require micro cams to protect, definitely useful to have a few on the rack

Oh, for sure - I own quite a few small cams (Ultralight Mastercams, Fixe Aliens and one .4 X4 for some reason) and use them all the time.  I was thinking more about the people looking for a "C3 replacement" - that's not me.  Not yet anyway.

Dan Africk wrote:
I'm a bit confused. I've always understood double axle to be safer, since this design makes it impossible for the lobes to capsize (for lack of a better term) if the piece is undercammed and tipped out. Hence why all double-axle BD cams are rated for the mythical 'umbrella mode'. As far as I know the only reason single axles are used on the smallest sizes is that's necessary to make the head unit small enough.

Or just don't undercam your cam.  Even with double axles or camstops a tipped out cam that slips is still extremely likely to pop out.  The only difference is the cam itself is less likely to break by umbrella-ing.

I've had a 0.4 X4 break after a fall because the thin metal outside the lobe deformed and no longer opened and closed (it held the fall tho). 

Gold Plated Rocket Pony wrote: I'm guessing it should say "smallest [4 lobe] cam to date." looking at the vid:

You’ve never seen a Wild Country z1 have you. That’s the smallest 4cu to date, I’ll see if I can find mine and post a picture. Practically a toothpick.

I am really curious to see when the head width size gets confirmed for the .0, .1, and .2. Will be interesting to see if these can come close to the C3 0,00, and 000 in terms of width.   

Justin. S wrote:

You’ve never seen a Wild Country z1 have you. That’s the smallest 4cu to date, I’ll see if I can find mine and post a picture. Practically a toothpick.

The original comment is about BD cams specifically, not all cams on the market.

It cracks me up that some people immediately come to MP and start lambasting a company that's putting out a new product that we essentially trust our lives to.  Youre not forced to buy any BD products and are welcome to use the competitor. Or better yet, feel free to start up a line with a pocket full of pebbles, machine nuts, and a few slings (make sure they are home made too).

Is this how SANITIZED climbing has become?

Every time you leave the ground, you are taking your life into your own hands and accepting the risk.  BD is doing their best to minimize that risk for many climbers on many different types of climbs, and are putting out a singe product to try and suit many needs.

So we want to have a conversation about the strengths/weaknesses of a device: great.  But if you want to whine about how it doesn't meet your needs and how inept the big climbing companies are? Go make it yourself. Id love tot hear about that first 20' whip.

JRZane wrote: It cracks me up that some people immediately come to MP and start lambasting a company that's putting out a new product that we essentially trust our lives to.  Youre not forced to buy any BD products and are welcome to use the competitor. Or better yet, feel free to start up a line with a pocket full of pebbles, machine nuts, and a few slings (make sure they are home made too).

Is this how SANITIZED climbing has become?

Every time you leave the ground, you are taking your life into your own hands and accepting the risk.  BD is doing their best to minimize that risk for many climbers on many different types of climbs, and are putting out a singe product to try and suit many needs.

So we want to have a conversation about the strengths/weaknesses of a device: great.  But if you want to whine about how it doesn't meet your needs and how inept the big climbing companies are? Go make it yourself. Id love tot hear about that first 20' whip.

Lol, ya BD et al doesn't do it for the money, they do it because they care!

Can’t wait to get a full set for free on moderate climbs around the front range. 

Rando Calrissian wrote: How come no Y4? Is the Z4 really 2 better? I NEED ANSWERS!!!

yeah!! what he said.

and I'm all about performance lifestyle shoes too!

Another article

Seems like sandblasted/raw lobes are the new thing.   Glad I don’t have to prescuff my gear out on the driveway anymore. 

greggrylls wrote: https://gearjunkie.com/black-diamond-z4-camalot

Another article

Seems like sandblasted/raw lobes are the new thing.   Glad I don’t have to prescuff my gear out on the driveway anymore. 

Ya, every article seems to call this out specifically. I thought DMM had a patent on removing the anodization from the rock-touching surface of their cams, hence why BD hasn't done it before...

"the Z4 will be replacing c3 and x4"....... I'm calling BS. This is not a proper replacement for the C3. This is just BD reaching into our pockets for spit shining a product that already exists.  Narrow headed four lobe cams are a thing already...Dragonfly, totem basic, totem, master cams, x4..the list goes on.

Nice fucking try. I refuse to beileve these will place anywhere near as well as C3 in thin seams that are encountered on hard basalt climbing and thin shallow pockets in granite.

Even BD's athletes still prefer C3, look at the cover of alpinist 66, or any video with thin, shallow cracks.