Watch out for guiding scams

Derek DeBruin wrote:

Against my better judgment, I'll vouch for Tico. He's got one of them fancy pins and everything. 

Derek,

I believe the correct answer to the joke is, "Because he'll tell you." 

Ben Pellerin wrote:

I know right.... this same crowd always takes shit way to seriously. 

This was supposed to be a thread about how much we charge for OUR under the table guiding.

Now it's some kinda "my opinion matters and is right" ego shit show. Bunch of lame ducks.

Tradiban link to a tommy boy scene is more relevant than any of these comments about what you wankers think about guide certifications. MP shattering egos daily.. this crew needs a new hobbie.

(Hat-tip)

FrankPS wrote:

Derek,

I believe the correct answer to the joke is, "Because he'll tell you." 

Oh, shit. I mean, of course I wouldn't recognize the set up for a joke--it's obvious because of this joke:

What do guides use for birth control?
Their personalities.

Tico wrote:

I onsighted a few pitches of .12, with a pack on and dragging two ropes, during my exam.  You're describing the "minimum movement standard", emphasis on minimum.  Your AMGA experience is analogous to the anti vaxxer with a Google MD.

ROFL. Cool story bro.

lets all be honest ...1 year of top roping is enough experience to teach top roping...if you haven't figured it out your probably dead ;)

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

ROFL. Cool story bro.

Yeah, your has-been/never-was anonymous coward act is way better.  Except it's a boring rehash of so many wreck.climbing trolls.  

Tico wrote:

Yeah, your has-been/never-was anonymous coward act is way better.  Except it's a boring rehash of so many wreck.climbing trolls.  

Your bragging made you look weak. HB can see through the bullshit, as can I.

The take away here is that this is the internet, people have opinions, and we all like climbing.

Tradiban wrote:

Your bragging made you look weak. HB can see through the bullshit, as can I.

Getting ganged up on by the AC crowd, there should be a flair for that.

Anonymous wrote: HB, what would the AMGA Rock Cert have to consist of for you to sign off on it? What would it take for you to consider a guide as being legit, coming off the exams? How much experience trumps the AGMA cert?

For what it's worth, the actual requirements are far more than HB keeps quoting, and can easily be found on the AMGA website.  A few of the possibly more relevant requirements:

• You have led or shared lead on at least 10 Grade IV or longer rock routes (5 of these have been completed since your Rock Guide Course)
• Since completing the Rock Guide Course, you have guided or mock guided a minimum of 20 rock routes Grade III or longer
• Documentation of lead or shared lead on 25 different alpine routes in at least 2 different areas (e.g., Cascades and Alaska). Of these 25 routes, 10 are classic alpine routes rated 5.6 or harder and Grade III or longer, 5 include snow, ice or mixed climbing, and 5 are ice routes rated WI 3 or harder
• Successful completion of an AMGA approved Level II, or Level I Avalanche Training and Avalanche Rescue Course
• Documentation of 20 lead or shared lead ice routes (10 of which are WI 4 or harder)
• Confidence leading ice and mixed routes up to WI 4+ M5 at the time of the exam
• Since completing the IIC you have led or shared lead on 10 ice climbs WI 4+ or harder
• Since completing the IIC you have guided 20 days on multi-pitch ice routes; 10 of these days can be mock guided
• Since completing the Alpine Guide Course, documentation of lead or shared on 10 different glacier routes with significant crevasse difficulty
• Since completing the Alpine Guide Course, documentation of lead or shared lead on 5 different alpine routes Grade IV or longer
• Since completing the Alpine Guide Course, documentation of lead or shared lead on 5 different ice climbs rated WI 4 or harder
• Since completing the Alpine Guide Course, documentation of 10 guided/mock-guided days in diverse alpine terrain
• You have completed 20 different ski tours (5 of which are on terrain 40 degrees or steeper, 5 of which are day tours that include at least 4500 vertical feet of ascent and descent, and 5 of which are multi-day tours using huts or ski camping)

Of course, none of this guarantees that somebody will be climbing at an extremely high level in terms of grades.  Arguably, that's not the point of a guide.  It DOES guarantee a minimum level of competence in a variety of disciplines and terrains.

It also guarantees that pretty much any AMGA mountain guide will have a much higher overall climbing capability than ol' HB, which is probably why he's so salty about it.

(Source: I'm not a guide and don't plan on becoming one, but I can read and use google)

$200 a day, you can have a seat on the boat,no inflating or poling duties, BBQ, and photo package taken by THE Tony Herr, BYOB/W.
spaces are limited.  
PM me for details.  

Are those the requirements to be an AMGA-certified Rock Guide? Why would a rock guide have to have ice, glacier travel, or ski touring experience?

Kyle Tarry wrote:

For what it's worth, the actual requirements are far more than HB keeps quoting, and can easily be found on the AMGA website.  A few of the possibly more relevant requirements:

• You have led or shared lead on at least 10 Grade IV or longer rock routes (5 of these have been completed since your Rock Guide Course)
• Since completing the Rock Guide Course, you have guided or mock guided a minimum of 20 rock routes Grade III or longer
• Documentation of lead or shared lead on 25 different alpine routes in at least 2 different areas (e.g., Cascades and Alaska). Of these 25 routes, 10 are classic alpine routes rated 5.6 or harder and Grade III or longer, 5 include snow, ice or mixed climbing, and 5 are ice routes rated WI 3 or harder
• Successful completion of an AMGA approved Level II, or Level I Avalanche Training and Avalanche Rescue Course
• Documentation of 20 lead or shared lead ice routes (10 of which are WI 4 or harder)
• Confidence leading ice and mixed routes up to WI 4+ M5 at the time of the exam
• Since completing the IIC you have led or shared lead on 10 ice climbs WI 4+ or harder
• Since completing the IIC you have guided 20 days on multi-pitch ice routes; 10 of these days can be mock guided
• Since completing the Alpine Guide Course, documentation of lead or shared on 10 different glacier routes with significant crevasse difficulty
• Since completing the Alpine Guide Course, documentation of lead or shared lead on 5 different alpine routes Grade IV or longer
• Since completing the Alpine Guide Course, documentation of lead or shared lead on 5 different ice climbs rated WI 4 or harder
• Since completing the Alpine Guide Course, documentation of 10 guided/mock-guided days in diverse alpine terrain
• You have completed 20 different ski tours (5 of which are on terrain 40 degrees or steeper, 5 of which are day tours that include at least 4500 vertical feet of ascent and descent, and 5 of which are multi-day tours using huts or ski camping)

Of course, none of this guarantees that somebody will be climbing at an extremely high level in terms of grades.  Arguably, that's not the point of a guide.  It DOES guarantee a minimum level of competence in a variety of disciplines and terrains.

It also guarantees that pretty much an AMGA mountain guide will have a much higher overall climbing capability than ol' HB, which is probably why he's so salty about it.

(Source: I'm not a guide and don't plan on becoming one, but I can read and use google)

ROFL. Tell me more about this "mock guiding" thing and all these gnar 5.6 routes? Maybe I can  be AMGA grandfathered in....LOL.

Basically its a wknd in the Valley, a weekend in Lee Vining and a wknd on Mt. Ranier plus some ski touring in the back country: Good to go! This of course is pathetic compared to UIAGM or ENSA certification.

Maybe someday you too can aspire, BH Kyle, but that 5.6 Grade IV may be a C. Blocker? Maybe laps up that Goat Wall pos will suffice?

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Basically its a wknd in the Valley, a weekend in Lee Vining and a wknd on Mt. Ranier plus some ski touring in the back country: Good to go!

This wouldn't meet half of the stated requirements, which you'd know if you bothered to read them.

I'm also not sure how you'd get 86 days of instruction, 10 grade IVs, 20 grade IIIs, 10 different glacier routes, 20 ski tours, and all this other stuff done in 3 weekends?

 This of course is pathetic compared to UIAGM or ENSA certification.

The IFMGA (UIAGM) recognizes AMGA Mountain Guides as equivalent to their certification, so I'm not quite sure how this makes any sense.  Maybe you can post the relative requirements for an AMGA Mountain Guide an an ENSA guide so we can all compare them, instead of making vague statements with no facts to back them up?  I am 100% willing to concede that the ENSA (or any other organization's) requirements are more significant, if you can offer a shred of proof.

Edit: It took about 20 seconds on google to find the IFMGA requirements: ifmga.info/%3Cnolink%3E/tra…

Looks pretty similar to AMGA Mountain Guide.  Can you explain why/how one of two very similar sets of requirements is "pathetic"?

Maybe someday you too can aspire, BH Kyle, but that 5.6 Grade IV may be a C. Blocker? Maybe laps up that Goat Wall pos will suffice?

Sorry, I legitimately can't decipher what this is supposed to mean.  It seems like an insult, which I don't really understand, since this has nothing to do with me?  I simply pointed out that the prerequisites are a bit more significant than you claimed.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Right, so you should be sued for practicing without certification (it doesn't matter if you charge or not under the law).

AMGA certification don't mean shit my friend.

There's is absolutely nothing wrong with guiding.

There is everything wrong with AMGA Certification being used as a substitute for experience and judgment.

Supertopo infiltration is certainly here.  Good luck.   Hopefully ST leftovers won't shit the bed here too.

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/spo/d/los-angeles-learn-to-rock-climb/6881283326.html

Seems legit

/s

Who tf is this guy selling gear and 10 hours of instruction for $250? Could be selling potentially dangerous knock off gear, also looks like he is "guiding" up 4th class considering almost no one in any of the pictures is wearing rock shoes. This is a legal clusterfuck of liability waiting to happen.

Kyle Tarry wrote: I am 100% willing to concede that the ENSA (or any other organization's) requirements are more significant, if you can offer a shred of proof.

Its 3 years of training to get ENSA certification vs. 86 days (lol) for the AMGA in addition to a far more selective method of accepting candidates. UIAGM is selective too AFAIK. Not everyone with money and a little experience can apply. Even you BH Kyle.

http://www.ensa.sports.gouv.fr/images/ENSA/alpinisme/programme/plaquette_alpi_versionanglaise.pdf 

Maybe a AMGA rep can tell us how they accept individuals for their guide courses (lol).

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Its 3 years of training to get ENSA certification vs. 86 days (lol) for the AMGA in addition to a far more selective method of accepting candidates.

86 days is the number of days of actual AMGA instruction.  It doesn't mean you get certified 86 days after you apply.  3 years is the approximate duration required for most people to do the ENSA coursework and prereqs, it doesn't mean that you have 1095 days of training.  This is not complicated.  The document you liked to shows the ENSA guidelines, which also add up to approximately 80-100 days of training.

Again, the IFMGA oversees all these organizations, and they have decided that the AMGA criteria is sufficiently aligned with the other organizations to make the certifications equivalent.  Based on all of the listed criteria (see link in my post above), the two organizations are very well aligned.

Kyle Tarry wrote: 86 days is the number of days of actual AMGA instruction.  It doesn't mean you get certified 86 days after you apply.  3 years is the approximate duration required for most people to do the ENSA coursework and prereqs, it doesn't mean that you have 1095 days of training.  This is not complicated.  The document you liked to shows the ENSA guidelines, which also add up to approximately 80-100 days of training.

Again, the IFMGA oversees all these organizations, and they have decided that the AMGA criteria is sufficiently aligned with the other organizations to make the certifications equivalent.  Based on all of the listed criteria (see link in my post above), the two organizations are very well aligned.

ROFL. Tell me more about the AMGA 3 years of coursework and prep that equals 1095 days of training. These are not ENSA guidelines, they are requirements.

The IFMGA does not "oversee" the AMGA which is entirely independent. They offer a courtesy to AMGA guides allowing them to guide in their mountains. This does not mean for a second that some AMGA certifed guide is competent to guide in the Alps.

ps I lubber mah BH Stalker Kyle.

Anybody can jump through the hoops and some of the bad-ass guys just don't have the tact for guiding. AMGA is a nice rubber stamp but there's so many people out there who have it and like to toss it out there braggadociously that it's basically lost all meaning.

If you are checking out a guide, ask a "real" climber to asses their resume, that's what matters not the sticker on the back of their "home".