Just got word that Shawn Snyder is banned from Smith Rock State Park for 210 days!

Pnelson wrote:

I've never seen a "discreet manor."  Most are big, huge, gaudy affairs with gates, facades, outbuildings, that sort of thing.

Lol.  I was wondering if anyone caught that!

I do love how the overly defensive immediately jump to justify their selfish actions. Jeez some of you act like we condone stealing.....

There's only one thing worse than stealing. LITTERING IN OUR SENSITIVE NATURE.

*sees orange peel on ground* START A THREAD ON MP

*banana peel??* OMFG MOCroDamAges to environment!!!

*stashes 80 lbs of gear under a tree* BRAH I'M DOIN U A FAVOR. Let me write a 4 paragraph essay justifying how climbing isn't selfish at all

it's a Smith thang, we wouldn't understand.

Chris Hatzai wrote:

From what Ian Caldwell told me, any gear left on the walls is technically considered park property. Anything removed from the walls is then considered stealing from state property. Now obviously there is a lot of grey area with this and I think the park and park users know that it’s general ettiequte here that it’s ok to leave your gear  up while projecting a route or the routes that are fixed, theyre ok as well. 

It just really sucks that this little Smeagol needs to push it to this realm of overly bureaucratic black and white.

I just want to understand fully since I've never heard it actually explained: according to the policy shown earlier, in situ gear (project draws) are prohibited by the park, and Ian has confirmed these technically become park property if left overnight. This seems clear-cut and easy to understand.

Despite this policy, it seems the rangers/park managers either choose not to enforce it, or simply can't realistically enforce it since it would be near impossible to track when draws go up, come down, etc. and then ticket people when they remove them. Is one of these true?

Are there any cases where someone was fined or removed from the park for taking their own project draws down? I guess I'm trying to understand fully the risks, impact and possible (legal) consequences of leaving project draws up in the future, and whether a ranger could suddenly choose to ticket someone for removing their own draws.

Chuck Becker wrote:

I just want to understand fully since I've never heard it actually explained: according to the policy shown earlier, in situ gear (project draws) are prohibited by the park, and Ian has confirmed these technically become park property if left overnight. This seems clear-cut and easy to understand.

Despite this policy, it seems the rangers/park managers either choose not to enforce it, or simply can't realistically enforce it since it would be near impossible to track when draws go up, come down, etc. and then ticket people when they remove them. Is one of these true?

Are there any cases where someone was fined or removed from the park for taking their own project draws down? I guess I'm trying to understand fully the risks, impact and possible (legal) consequences of leaving project draws up in the future, and whether a ranger could suddenly choose to ticket someone for removing their own draws.

Chuck if I were you I would personally contact Scott or Ian about your concerns. 

I myself feel completely comfortable leaving draws up while working a route. To each their own.

Lighten up Robert or I’ll come out and downgrade your project

FREE SHAWN SNYDER!!!

Tim Lutz wrote:

Why?

abandon moderation wrote:

There's an obvious problem here, though. What are the 5.12 climbers going to say when 5.10 climbers start leaving project draws on the 5.10s?

No doubt the 5.8 climbers will object, but they will patiently explain how much harder their route is and why that makes it ok.

I'll give someone a pass for leaving draws on a seriously overhanging route (even if it's 5.8). If someone leaves draws on a 5.13 dead vertical crimpfest just because it's 5.13, they're lazy or just want to be one of the cool kids.

It’s not the locals you need to worry about stealing your draws off of easy routes. It’s more the hordes of people visiting from out of town who will gank your stuff. Ive had so many quickdraws taken from the main area in past years. Ive learned not to leave gear up if the route im working is next to an easier climb. Chances are, those draws wont be there by the time you get back.

And as somewhat of an unwritten rule of ettiequte, most people climbing at harder grades usually have the respect and understanding of other climbers not to steal their project draws.  

The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air wrote:

I agree with your statement.

Well, he did get you to respond and use the tired-out tactic of changing his words in exchange for likes from the like-minded, so I'd say 1 for him and maybe -1 or even -2 for you.

I never got the fixed draw thing until I actually  worked a wildly overhanging route..  

Here is the rule:

"Equipment used for technical rock climbing or slack lining and related activities may be left in day-use areas in a discreet manor. If, for any reason, park staff needs the equipment to be removed, either park staff, or official park volunteers may remove it or instruct the responsible individuals to remove it."

Draws are allowed at Smith Rock and remain the property of the person hanging them. Taking draws is theft, the same as stealing someones pack at the base of the cliff, stealing someones tent in the bivi area or stealing from someones car parked in the day-use parking lot.

I dont think anyone here is condoning stealing (except maybe that shawn dude), but what they are against is leaving your stuff about. Of course stealing is bad, dont do it. But dont be surprised if your shit gets stolen when you leave it there, sitting un-attended for multiple days. Its a lazy practice.

Would you be surprised if you left your bike unlocked and un-attended out in the city overnight and it got stolen? Obviously fuck the thieves for stealing the bike, but are you all that surprised it was stolen in the first place?

jay P wrote: I dont think anyone here is condoning stealing (except maybe that shawn dude), but what they are against is leaving your stuff about. Of course stealing is bad, dont do it. But dont be surprised if your shit gets stolen when you leave it there, sitting un-attended for multiple days. Its a lazy practice.

Would you be surprised if you left your bike unlocked and un-attended out in the city overnight and it got stolen? Obviously fuck the thieves for stealing the bike, but are you all that surprised it was stolen in the first place?

It's this type of logic that leads to a society where stuff gets stolen, you sir are par t of the problem. There are crime ridden societies and ones where people leave the doors unlocked. Are you advocating for a society of fear and suspicion over one of mutual respect? That's what it sounds like when punters who can barely climb their way out of a paper bag 5.10 criticize the practice of leaving up draws. Ya know, you could take the hangers and chains off routes too but that rarely happens. Why is that?

Top post tomorrrow: WTS - 200 QDs, 20 60m mixed static ropes, heaps of SS bolts, great projecting kit!

Jack Quarless wrote:

....advocating for a society....of mutual respect?

....when punters who can barely climb their way out of a paper bag 5.10 criticize the practice....

I’m with Jack.  Goddamn punters have no respect these days...

Jack Quarless wrote:

It's this type of logic that leads to a society where stuff gets stolen, you sir are par t of the problem. There are crime ridden societies and ones where people leave the doors unlocked. Are you advocating for a society of fear and suspicion over one of mutual respect? That's what it sounds like when punters who can barely climb their way out of a paper bag 5.10 criticize the practice of leaving up draws. Ya know, you could take the hangers and chains off routes too but that rarely happens. Why is that?

Hardly part of the problem. I'm just living in reality. If you leave your shit out, it is more likely to get stolen. Straight and simple. No matter how much you and I would prefer a world where we never have to lock a door, or worry about our bike getting stolen (or draws), the fact remains that within a large population, there are going to be pieces of shit. That, sadly, is never going to change. There are always people who will be looking to take advantage. Especially now with the explosion of climbing popularity, you're going to have hordes of these "punters". Even more so at one of the most popular sport climbing destinations in the US.

There is a distinction between development gear and just leaving your project draws on a route.
If your 'project' requires you to have to leave your draws up to even have a chance of sending, might be time to set your ego aside for a second and jump on something a little more your speed. Its ok, you still climb hard. People still think youre cool.

jay P wrote: If your 'project' requires you to have to leave your draws up to even have a chance of sending, might be time to set your ego aside for a second and jump on something a little more your speed. Its ok, you still climb hard. People still think youre cool. 

bro, do you even project?

no? then stay in your lane punter, the adults are talking

jay P wrote: There is a distinction between development gear and just leaving your project draws on a route.
If your 'project' requires you to have to leave your draws up to even have a chance of sending, might be time to set your ego aside for a second and jump on something a little more your speed. Its ok, you still climb hard. People still think youre cool.

The distinction is only in your mind. I'll be sure to let Ondra know that he needs to set his ego aside and just do the 5.9 slabs  that you approve of. This way we can be sure to not hurt your precious feelings and worsen your inferiority complex. 

I assure you that no one thinks I am cool. 

Jack Quarless wrote:

The distinction is only in your mind. I'll be sure to let Ondra know that he needs to set his ego aside and just do the 5.9 slabs  that you approve of. This way we can be sure to not hurt your precious feelings and worsen your inferiority complex. 

I assure you that no one thinks I am cool. 

We are on an online forum talking about our own personal opinions. Of course the distinction is in my mind. Where else would it be? Just seems to me that the inferiority complex lies within you, who feels the need to push their grade so hard. But hey, if you keep climbing hard and pushing those numbers, maybe one day they will think youre cool.