Draws stolen of China Doll

Placing bolts on a route that can be lead on gear, especially if it has been lead on gear is aimply a choice to not preserve nature and be minimum impact.

Minimum impact should continue to be applied in climbing.  I don't get where this "bolting natural lines is fine because don't clip them " factors into conserving and not defacing natural resources.

Pete Spri wrote: Placing bolts on a route that can be lead on gear, especially if it has been lead on gear is aimply a choice to not preserve nature and be minimum impact.

Minimum impact should continue to be applied in climbing.  I don't get where this "bolting natural lines is fine because don't clip them " factors into conserving and not defacing natural resources.

The best way to have minimum impact is to not climb.  Because your passage will kill lichen, kill bushes and plants, dislodge loose rock, leave chalk (in most cases), create a trail to the base, create a descent trail (often), produce noise that disturbs wildlife, may disturb nesting birds on or adjacent to the route, etc.  

The relative further insult of placing a fixed anchor, or of placing bolts, is small compared to the overall insult of all things listed above.  We, as climbers, should stay out of the wilderness and stick to the well-worn hiking trails that others use if we want to limit our impact to the bare minimum.  Or better yet, just go to the gym.

I, for one, am too selfish and self-indulgent to stay away from outdoor cliffs.

Pete Spri wrote: I don't get where this "bolting natural lines is fine because don't clip them " factors into conserving and not defacing natural resources.

Quite a few classic BoCan sport routes were originally lead on gear, but retrobolted with the approval of the FA.  Hands of destiny and hot flyer are examples. 

LNT.  Pack it in, pack it out. Enough said.  No climbing ethics.  Just common sense.  Which is not too common around here.  

That route isn't 5.14 and leading it "trad" involves placing about 6 pieces, even without clipping bolts. It's full of pins, heads, fixed wires, and an intermediate anchor with a no-hands.

funky 5.12c -> No hands at the "5.13" anchor - > Sustained V7/v8

The rock quality is also surprisingly not good (scrabby and crumbling) - hence numerous accounts of foot chips and crimps breaking off regularly. [/irellevant]

If you took someone else's gear off the route, you should have left it at the base of clipped to the first bolt.

Man you guys are now arguing about the bolts being there? Bob Horan already said he was sorry like forever ago. If they really piss off the fat, carpal tunnel ridden dads back your words up and go chop them. Ya’ll spray about ethics and it hardly looks like half of you could get up what could be argued as a rock climb. Everybody who “sends” this route has used the bolts for both tr directionals and working the lower bit. Routes at this end of the spectrum typically require a lot of time to complete, although I think nick berry sent fast (no surprise). Maybe try internet porn instead of mp for a bit?

Corey Flynn wrote: Man you guys are now arguing about the bolts being there? Bob Horan already said he was sorry like forever ago. If they really piss off the fat, carpal tunnel ridden dads back your words up and go chop them. Ya’ll spray about ethics and it hardly looks like half of you could get up what could be argued as a rock climb. Everybody who “sends” this route has used the bolts for both tr directionals and working the lower bit. Routes at this end of the spectrum typically require a lot of time to complete, although I think nick berry sent fast (no surprise). Maybe try internet porn instead of mp for a bit?

Post 99. Bumping for 100!

I got 99 replies but a china Doll ain’t one.

ClimberRunner wrote: [irrelevant aside] That route isn't 5.14 and leading it "trad" involves placing about 6 pieces, even without clipping bolts. It's full of pins, heads, fixed wires, and an intermediate anchor with a no-hands.

funky 5.12c -> No hands at the "5.13" anchor - > Sustained V7/v8

The rock quality is also surprisingly not good (scrabby and crumbling) - hence numerous accounts of foot chips and crimps breaking off regularly. [/irellevant]

If you took someone else's gear off the route, you should have left it at the base of clipped to the first bolt.

If we're engaging in the irellevant...

So you've lead CD on gear? Sent or not, that's a steep downgrade, maybe you're unuisually tall. Also the wire you'd clip at the bottom is not in great shape and if it rips or breaks you're on a ledge. 

Actually, I'd like to hear from the folks who have sent China Doll, or at least got close, and avoided the use of the bolts when working or onsighting (I'm sure it has had to have an onsight) it.

I think it is time that we address the route name - how can it still be called that?

I'm offended that no one has been offended.

the schmuck wrote: Actually, I'd like to hear from the folks who have sent China Doll, or at least got close, and avoided the use of the bolts when working or onsighting (I'm sure it has had to have an onsight) it.

The evictor in eldo (12d), classic all gear line,  has had only one onsight, by Honnold.  My guess is no one has come close to OS'ing CD, but would love to hear otherwise.  

Matt N wrote: I think it is time that we address the route name - how can it still be called that?

I'm offended that no one has been offended.

Justin S wrote:

The evictor in eldo (12d), classic all gear line,  has had only one onsight, by Honnold.  My guess is no one has come close to OS'ing CD, but would love to hear otherwise.  

Interesting. As 13+/14- onsights have become relatively commonplace, I was pretty sure that someone would have pulled it off, especially on a relatively popular route in the Front Range. Certainly a lot of folks on this thread have intimate knowledge of it. 

Perhaps people who have not either climbed the route or have helpful information leading to the return of the draws could refrain from taking part in this conversation... but then there would only have been one or two replies.
[Edited to remove shit-flinging rant]
If I had a problem with fixed gear, I would leave it at the bottom of a route for someone to pick up. Unless I am onsighting, I am usually pretty happy to clip it (or skip it). Nobody has onsighted China Doll, FYI, and essentially everyone has left fixed gear on it at some point while working on it.
Hard projects, both sport and trad, frequently have fixed gear on them. Regardless of how you feel about the matter, this is both an accepted convention and a fact of life.
Finally, for those of you who don't know (95% of you haven't even seen China Doll), it arches very heavily to the right and is a real pain to clean.

Corey Flynn wrote: Man you guys are now arguing about the bolts being there? Bob Horan already said he was sorry like forever ago. If they really piss off the fat, carpal tunnel ridden dads back your words up and go chop them. Ya’ll spray about ethics and it hardly looks like half of you could get up what could be argued as a rock climb. Everybody who “sends” this route has used the bolts for both tr directionals and working the lower bit. Routes at this end of the spectrum typically require a lot of time to complete, although I think nick berry sent fast (no surprise). Maybe try internet porn instead of mp for a bit?

So you’re saying your buddy was using quickdrawls to TR aid the route? No wonder they were taken

• Were they China-made biners? That would be the unkindest cut of all.

Sorry about the unhelpful finger pointing and irrelevant remarks. There is plenty of this on Mountain Project and I don't need to further contribute.
For the record, I would prefer the bolts not be there on China Doll, but stealing the quickdraws is theft and unacceptable by any account. I have a tipoff as to who might be involved, but it would be easier and more civil if the person responsible simply returned the draws. 

My year off climbing is coming up and I came back to MP for some psyche. I see nothing has changed...

It feels a bit like going home on Thanksgiving.