Becoming a guide in ny without amga certs?

I have gotten a bunch of people at the gym asking if I'd be willing to take them outdoors and was wondering how viable it would be as a side hustle. The process for becoming an amga rock guide looks long and expensive. I looked up the rules here: dec.ny.gov/docs/legal_prote… and I don't see any requirement at all for me to be amga certified. It looks like all I would need is to take the basic water safety class and register with the dec and I could legally guide in new york. I'm already first aid and cpr certified. Then I could just put up ads on craigslist and start taking people out.

One of my friends brought up insurance as a possible problem. Would it just be a matter of finding an insurance company willing to insure me? How necessary is insurance? I'm a broke-ass student, suing me is like getting blood from a stone.

It is very easy to get your AMGA SPI certification, depending on location the course + exam is less than $1000.

You will need a permit to guide on any public land from the managing agency. That will prevent you from being legal to "guide" most places. Historically many of us guided for an outfitter or guide service before AMGA came along and had many years of guiding without being certified by AMGA or IFMG. You should have a minimum of Wilderness first responder as well. Guiding is a profession not a hobby. If you serious about it you better jump through the hoops.

A very big limiting factor to being a guide in the U.S. is the permit required  to do business on public land. It forces you to work with an existing permit holder and that can really limit your ability to make money and work year round.

Guiding companies sometimes employ people who don't have certifications, but that is on those companies and their insurance. If you take people out on your own, you'll want insurance, and given all the extra questions insurers ask when you apply for life insurance and say you climb, I can't imagine that a reputable company would give you personal liability insurance (unless at an astronomical rate) if you didn't have some kind of professional certification.

So you could take people out 99 times and have nothing go wrong, but when an accident happens that 100th time, whether through your negligence or not, you may find yourself bankrupt due to liability, legal fees, or both.

In your situation, it's better to take a few people out and ask them to pay for gas and beer.

Norm how would I get the permit to guide on public land? If I wanted to guide in the gunks or the adirondacks. I was just on google and didn't see much information on this, maybe I'm searching hte wrong thing.

Gunks is private.
I would go through the process to become an SPI of a CWI and work with another certified guide.
Not 100% sure,  but I believe that if there were ever to be an accident while your guiding the certification would save you in the even of a lawsuit.
I think guides need to register places their guiding, pay dues, etc. or again if there were ever an accident you would not be covered.
You could trade/barter and take people out but I definitely wouldn’t call yourself a “guide” that seems like its asking for trouble.

You’d have to go through the managing agency who ever that is. A phone call will get you quicker results.

I would take this discussion to the Northeast Forum, you may find better luck there as this is specific to NY. Most people here are going after general guiding in the US, particularly out west where permits are few and far between many different guide companies.

But I think you're right - all you need is the NY permit to guide - though the application process will look at your credentials and climbing resume and if you do not have the standard training like many of the guides I would imagine you will have a hard time getting accepted.

Edit: I also hear Alpenglow Adventure Sports hires a bunch of people for the summer season in Bar Harbor - that could be a fast track to getting the training you need to be a guide.

​Mohonk Preserve Policy​

You don't need any certs to take people out climbing out of the goodness of your heart.  It's also a great way to build experience.

Is beer no longer acceptable dirtbag tender?

You will need to set up an Independent small business and acquire insurance to cover you to take people out if they are paying you.  This will incur a yearly cost of $1000 for insurance, and additionally, whatever overhead the business itself has (accounting if you don't want to do it, lawyers' fee if you don't want to set up an LLC on your own Etc.).  Additionally, in finding an insurance company you will need to find one that will recognize NYS DEC standards as viable for them to provide coverage.  

Getting the license is easy in itself- here are the standards: dec.ny.gov/docs/legal_prote…

Setting up an LLC is also easy enough- if you will make enough money to warrant that.  What you would need to do to avoid that would be find a business that would allow you to be covered under their insurance with your qualifications(which currently sounds like you don't have any).

SO in conclusion- Yes.  You can guide independently, but that process will be just as expensive if not more so than going the AMGA route.  Your best bet is to get AMGA AND NYS licensing and guiding through a company that you know and trust.  You'll likely have to pay them a percentage of your trips- but it'll be the lowest amount of overhead.  

Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.  

Arthur E. Gross III wrote: 
Not 100% sure,  but I believe that if there were ever to be an accident while your guiding the certification would save you in the even of a lawsuit.

Not necessarily.  If it is proven that you were not following the standards of your governing body you would be held 100% liable.  That can be as obvious a detail as using a rope that doesn't have a rope log or as subtle as using a cordelette with an triple instead of a double fisherman's(just an example don't jump down my throat).  

Why?  you put yourself at risk legally... you'd piss off the actual guides nearby if they hear some gumby is charging people for rock climbing tours un-certified ...

clear and obvious DON'T DO IT for a side hustle. Take out a buddy and teach him all you want, but involve money and then you're in huge trouble/risk

Tail Spin wrote: I have gotten a bunch of people at the gym asking if I'd be willing to take them outdoors ... basic water safety class ...

I hate when I go out cragging and someone drowns 

NorCalNomad wrote:

I hate when I go out cragging and someone drowns 

The water safety element of the NYS Outdoor Guide program is a curious legacy that goes back to the 1800s when guides typically paddled their clients around in canoes or guideboats. It is enshrined in the underlying legislation, so yea, even rock climbing guides need to demonstrate a (trivial) proficiency about wet things.

OP - I can tell you that both the Palisade Interstate Parks Commission and the Mohonk Preserve (collectively these are the land managers of the Gunks' state and private land, respectively) have stringent requirements that go beyond certification, state license, and insurance.  As far as needing a permit for other state land operations, that's a new one to me, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out if you call the Guide Program office up in Albany. Make sure they don't simply quote the group-size limits and associated permitting that apply to even casual hiking and camping groups.

NorCalNomad wrote:

I hate when I go out cragging and someone drowns 

Rogers Rock...

I thought the  gunks was locked up.   1 or 2 companys have  contracts and exclusivs. Bootleg  guiding  highly  frowned apon by  those who have paid a hefty fee and  signed a  contract... 

Most land management agencies only contract with 1 or 2 companies. The only way to then guide in the park/ forest is to guest guide for whatever company is permitted. Contact land managers and they will have different specs than what is needed to guide there (ex. Call the forest service district office). The short answer is probably "no" its probably not a viable side hustle.  Other things you need:

WFR is industry standard for guides.
A Waiver.
Liability Insurance.
Permits (different ones for different areas).
A business license (LLC or DBA) - paying for a year of legal zoom is the easiest way to set this up.
Rescue Training.

A friend of mine started his own guiding company in Southern California and he had to have 3 industry professionals vouch for him before a company would offer to sell him liability insurance. Being AMGA certified also got him through the door in this process.

You take on a lot of liability guiding people- make sure you are covered if you start doing this for profit.  Insurance is an absolute necessity and will be a requirement of all land management agencies.
Not having much money is not a viable plan.  People sue for all kinds of dumb shit, and it could derail your life.

Get a job for a guiding company or volunteer for a local climbing club.  To be sure, guiding has a high start-up cost. 

Been a guide since the '70s when I even guided the FA of a grade V.

I was among the first 10 guides certified by the AMGA.

I've had some wonderful experiences teaching others and watching their skill improve.

But here is the thing; it is a highly dangerous and woefully underpaid profession because you are competing with people who want to guide just to have people look up to them, often literally.

All too often guiding is free soloing with bad rope drag,.. 

Ron O wrote:
All too often guiding is free soloing with bad rope drag,.. 

This is it.