Case wrote: I don't know anything about you or your climbing history but i will say It is best to have a lot of climbing experience under your belt before thinking about developing (probably at least a decade) for a ton of small reasons that all add up and our important as a whole. Without this experience people tend to put up sub par routes or unethical routes. I have been noticing more and more squeeze jobs and adding bolts to others climbs as the desire for FA's and peoples need to "contribute to climbing" increases. Thanks for thinking of ethics and asking for feedback Sean.
On a side note, not every scrappy cliff face needs to be bolted (maybe just have it be a TR or just let the moss grow), LNT has a long history in this sport and should not be cast aside because there are more gym climbers out there, lets all try and make good decisions and help educate all the newer climbers.
Cheers
I completely agree (not that anyone cares about my opinion). I just wanted to say that there are many other ways of contributing: mentoring, trail building, donating to climbing organizations, etc.
Bagging an FA may get most of the "glory" but the rest is needed and important.
J P
·
Apr 4, 2019
·
Portland, OR
· Joined Jan 2016
· Points: 550
Eric Engberg wrote: Something to be said for LNT up to and including publicizing that you did it.
The LNT organization has been considering adding a new principle; link here
Aren't you college educated? Those are completely separate issues. OP needs to "learn to fish" in the sense that "First Ascent Ethics" are not a black/white subject. To understand the issue he needs to understand it from the ground up. There's nuance that's not teachable, it must be experienced.
Besides, last thing we need is another self appraising navel gazer who thinks they are gods gift to climbing because they know how to use a drill.
Real advise to the OP. Read up on the practices you are interested in but take no one's word on them. Climb often and think about why/how routes were established. Read climbing history and digest it in the modern context. Ask yourself, Why do I want to develop routes? Are your intentions pure? Are the routes for you or for the community? Does a route NEED to go where you want it to go?
Short answer: MP is a bad place for good answers, go climb and shut up about it. Good answers will come to you there.
Great reply.While it's easy to attack the messenger, the message is clear. It's like asking the internet for a hot girlfriend. You have to earn the hot girlfriend.
You could say the same thing about all trad climbing.
And you'd be just as wrong.
Not bolting a trad route changes the way that future climbers experience the route in a positive way so it has value. Bolting a route in a specific "style" at best only effects the way that the first ascentionist experiences the route and at worst it means that the ascentionist will have to put bolts in sub optimal places causing everyone's future experiences will suffer.
Not bolting a trad route changes the way that future climbers experience the route in a positive way so it has value. Bolting a route in a specific "style" at best only effects the way that the first ascentionist experiences the route and at worst it means that the ascentionist will have to put bolts in sub optimal places causing everyone's future experiences will suffer.
You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.
The idea behind a "trad" ascent (ground up) is that the FA and every party thereafter has a very similar and distinctly unique experience (as compared to sport bolted routes) albeit never quite the same if the bolting was on lead. Its a way of retaining adventure though but not all routes need to have this element. The idea is that there will be something more added with adventure, rather than a lowering of the experience to the lowest common sporto denominator.
The few legit "trad" routes being put up this way today deserve to endure, imo, so that even gymbies have something to aspire.
Aren't you college educated? Those are completely separate issues. OP needs to "learn to fish" in the sense that "First Ascent Ethics" are not a black/white subject. To understand the issue he needs to understand it from the ground up. There's nuance that's not teachable, it must be experienced.
Besides, last thing we need is another self appraising navel gazer who thinks they are gods gift to climbing because they know how to use a drill.
Real advise to the OP. Read up on the practices you are interested in but take no one's word on them. Climb often and think about why/how routes were established. Read climbing history and digest it in the modern context. Ask yourself, Why do I want to develop routes? Are your intentions pure? Are the routes for you or for the community? Does a route NEED to go where you want it to go?
Short answer: MP is a bad place for good answers, go climb and shut up about it. Good answers will come to you there.
Can we discuss this gold from the guy who is on here non stop tearing people down and being a all around jerk?
nbrown
·
Apr 4, 2019
·
Unknown Hometown
· Joined Nov 2007
· Points: 8,357
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ^^^what I would add to the above is that the hardest part of FA-ing is knowing when not to drill and when the route is just a pile to be left alone.
I agree, and I think that using a hand drill is a good way to answer this question.
You don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.
The idea behind a "trad" ascent (ground up) is that the FA and every party thereafter has a very similar and distinctly unique experience albeit never quite the same if there is bolting on lead. Its a way of retaining adventure though, not all routes need to have this element. The idea is that there will be something more added, rather than a lowering of the experience to the lowest common denominator.
The few legit "trad" routes being put up this way today deserve to endure, imo, so that even gymbies have something to aspire.
I'll concede that bolting some routes in the ground up style is very impressive and it can positively influence the experience of the route for future climbers in some cases (the Bachar Yerian is a great example). The vast majority of sport routes are better served by rap bolting though. Its ridiculous to keep ground up bolting as the default ethic.
I'll concede that bolting some routes in the ground up style is very impressive and it can positively influence the experience of the route for future climbers in some cases (the Bachar Yerian is a great example). The vast majority of sport routes are better served by rap bolting though. Its ridiculous to keep ground up bolting as the default ethic.
Its not the default ethic in any other than tiny pockets of traditional climbing these days.
Great reply.While it's easy to attack the messenger, the message is clear. It's like asking the internet for a hot girlfriend. You have to earn the hot girlfriend.
^^^^^^^^This guy gets it!
And to the haters: One guy's "jerk" is another guy's Messiah. Join the tribe!!!!!!
Can you break down tradibans post without insults? Where is he wrong?
I'll bite.
Nick, through his continual Troll Shenanigans is the last person to tell anyone to "shut up and climb" on this forum.
As well, through continual denigration of the FA parties of routes he is the last one to tell anyone to respect traditions of how to FA, the foundation of which is respect for the people who did it.
This is a case of rather than attempting to post seriously from a foundation of respect he is coming from a foundation of posting w/e the hell he wants with no regard for others and their attempts to be helpful rather than be a dick and throw darts at them. Now he wants to have it both ways.
If he had the slightest shred of consistently helping others his better message of FA Ethics being complicated might be heard as well as the difficulty of crafting a worthy rock climb.
The OP has started his research here. He will find that yes, its complicated. Not so much the skills needed (basic mechanical skills) but the judgment to know what to do where and when. That will take some time but as long as the OP is not wrecking the place he can go have his own fun in the woods at his earliest convenience. Start by rigging some new TRs, cleaning them up and seeing if they are worthy.
Nick, through his continual Troll Shenanigans is the last person to tell anyone to "shut up and climb" on this forum.
As well, through continual denigration of the FA parties of routes he is the last one to tell anyone to respect traditions of how to FA, the foundation of which is respect for the people who did it.
This is a case of rather than attempting to post seriously from a foundation of respect he is coming from a foundation of posting w/e the hell he wants with no regard for others and their attempts to be helpful rather than be a dick and throw darts at them. Now he wants to have it both ways.
If he had the slightest shred of consistently helping others his better message of FA Ethics being complicated might be heard as well as the difficulty of crafting a worthy rock climb.
The OP has started his research here. He will find that yes, its complicated. Not so much the skills needed (basic mechanical skills) but the judgment to know what to do where and when. That will take some time but as long as the OP is not wrecking the place he can go have his own fun in the woods at his earliest convenience. Start by rigging some new TRs, cleaning them up and seeing if they are worthy.
The line rose slowly and steadily and then the surface of the ocean bulged ahead of the boat and the fish came out. He came out unendingly and water poured from his sides. He was bright in the sun and his head and back were dark purple and in the sun the stripes on his sides showed wide and a light lavender. His sword was as long as a baseball bat and tapered like a rapier and he rose his full length from the water and then re-entered it, smoothly, like a diver and the old man saw the great scythe-blade of his tail go under and the line commenced to race out.
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