Protein requirements for climbing?

You know why a doctor's office is referred to as a medical practice? Because it takes practice of what you studied to figure out what you think might work. People spend 6+ years in school then start "practicing" medicine and base their decisions on clinical studies but also what has worked for them in the past. If you disagree you get a second opinion or a third until you decide to trust their opinion.

Nutrition is the same. People will study it and start practicing what they think will work and work with clients and gain experience and use that experience to make a decision. If you disagree find a different opinion.

This doesn't discredit Neely or other nutritionists, she has worked with many people and has been practicing what she thinks works. Study all you want and try to be a better nutritionist than her, in the end you will end up practicing a lot on yourself to try to find something that works.

Annie W wrote: A strength athlete trying to bulk up would want to consume ~ 1 - 1.5g protein /lb body weight. A climber who wants to maintain (or shed) weight and have good performance and recovery should consume ~ .7g protein/ lb body weight. An average non-active person probably needs ~ .5g/lb. However, the equation isn't as simple as more protein = more recovery. Your body needs about 2g carbohydrate per gram protein to process and synthesize protein for recovery. Additionally, if you aren't eating enough total calories (which is usually more than you would expect), your performance and recovery will be sub-par no matter how much protein you eat.

Nutrition is a pretty subjective subject, and unfortunately the vast majority of the research in the field has been sponsored by food companies with vested interests and is biased. A lot of it comes down to understanding a few basic sports nutrition concepts, genetics, and experimenting with what works best for you.

As a personal anecdote, I went through a long phase where I tracked and analyzed my food like an OCD crazy person. I eat about .8g protein, 2.5g carbs, and .6g fat per lb of body weight. I've been on that plan for 2+ years had have had consistent strength and climbing improvements without gaining any weight. If I have a particularly intense or long day, I add more carbs but keep protein the same.

The book Training for New Alpinism does a decent job explaining sports nutrition for climbers (although most of the information can be found in the link above for free). I have not been impressed with the nutrition section of some other climbing training books I've browsed.

To be honest, though, if your protein intake is off by +/- 25g, or you consume it all in 2 big meals rather than 6 small ones, you probably won't notice much of a difference unless you are training at an elite level.

I haven't listened to the TrainingBeta podcast, but am intrigued and will be checking it out as I nerd out over this stuff.

This! just to expand on it, over 1.8 g/kg of body weight isn't going to be absorbed.  Also, I want to emphasize what is said about protein and recovery; protein is better consumed post exercise, with a sparing amount pre exercise (climbing).  I know everyone hates on carbs, but it is absolutely essential for people to eat enough carbohydrates, especially when they are athletic.  Carbs are what fuel the body for powerful moves while protein isn't something you want to have to tap into, its kind of a last resort as far as fuel is concerned.  Also, muscle hypertrophy men are more likely to bulk up with resistance training while women are less likely to bulk up due to testosterone.  Since climbing is a sport that does depend on strength to body weight ratio, you probably aren't looking for a lot of bulk.  I think it also depends on the type of climbing you do, so if you're more into alpine or multi pitch climbing you want to approach your sports nutrition from more of an endurance athlete  standpoint where if you are more into bouldering you want to approach it from more of an anaerobic standpoint.  Regardless, strength/resistance training is never a bad idea and something that plays a major factor in performance

http://climbsci.com/cast/01-protein/

Just listened to this. A bit rambly but I liked the content.

1.5-2 g/kg/day.  20 g/ meal.  Dismissed the idea of the anabolic window, or consuming directly after exercise.  Focus on total protein intake.  BCAAs are a marketing scam.

DRusso wrote: You know why a doctor's office is referred to as a medical practice? Because it takes practice of what you studied to figure out what you think might work. People spend 6+ years in school then start "practicing" medicine and base their decisions on clinical studies but also what has worked for them in the past. If you disagree you get a second opinion or a third until you decide to trust their opinion.

Nutrition is the same. People will study it and start practicing what they think will work and work with clients and gain experience and use that experience to make a decision. If you disagree find a different opinion.

This doesn't discredit Neely or other nutritionists, she has worked with many people and has been practicing what she thinks works. Study all you want and try to be a better nutritionist than her, in the end you will end up practicing a lot on yourself to try to find something that works.

That is not really why it's referred to as a medical practice, legal practice, etc. It is because it is the practical application of medical knowledge, theory, etc. Medical students start "practicing" (in your sense of the word) after their first didactic year, in the next 3 years of med school during their rotations, then during residency which could be up to 7 years, then maybe a fellowship of another year or 2 (or more). But I agree with the rest of what you said!

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

That is not really why it's referred to as a medical practice, legal practice, etc. It is because it is the practical application of medical knowledge, theory, etc. Medical students start "practicing" (in your sense of the word) after their first didactic year, in the next 3 years of med school during their rotations, then during residency which could be up to 7 years, then maybe a fellowship of another year or 2 (or more). But I agree with the rest of what you said!

student of exercise science here.  As one of my professors always says "you will always find research that says otherwise"

best thing to do is look for peer reviewed research on pub med to figure out if something is legitimate, vs sites like "natural health" or whatever.

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

She says on her site, "I am a Certified Integrative Clinical Nutrition Therapist specializing in Paleo and Primal nutrition [...] I received my nutrition certificate from Seven Bowls School of Nutrition, Nourishment and Healing".

I feel that this may be an unaccredited school, with a made-up certification with no oversight (like, how would you lose that "certification"?), specializing in a pop-sci diet.

I'm not very scientific about it, but I'm a fan of BCAA capsules and/or Skratch Labs endurance recovery mix after hard efforts.  I see a noticeable difference in my recovery.  Training for the New Alpinism would be a good read for you, there is a big emphasis on maximizing recovery.

Long Ranger wrote:

I feel that this may be an unaccredited school, with a made-up certification with no oversight (like, how would you lose that "certification"?), specializing in a pop-sci diet.

Well, they don't seem to have a website, but they do have a Facebook page. I'd totally pay them tens of thousands of dollars for a certificate. Wouldn't you?

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

Well, they don't seem to have a website, but they do have a Facebook page. I'd totally pay them tens of thousands of dollars for a certificate. Wouldn't you?

No. No I would not. It's run by this person: 

Who talks about, "The Art, Science and Magic of Eating".

MAAAAAAAGIC.

Long Ranger wrote:

No. No I would not. It's run by this person: 

https://alchemyofnourishment.com

Who talks about, "The Art, Science and Magic of Eating".

MAAAAAAAGIC.

The history and current state of nutrition advice in academia, pop science, and shit social media like here might suggest the word “magic” is almost as appropriate as the word “science”. Anyone who says they know the best diet for someone else is most likely wrong

the schmuck wrote: For hard sending one should consume one blueberry with a glass of water, three times per day. The weight will shed right off, and your famished rage will fuel you to sending glory. One can supplement protein intake by adding the occasional housefly/cockroach to said blueberry if you see power waining. 

Blueberries are pretty expensive, any way to cut corners here?

Long Ranger wrote:

No. No I would not. It's run by this person: 

https://alchemyofnourishment.com

Who talks about, "The Art, Science and Magic of Eating".

MAAAAAAAGIC.

The hater-ade is in full effect.

You've really added to this conversation.

Modelo or Dinner, the choices.   

Modelo..........just add protein 

Luke Bertelsen wrote:

The hater-ade is in full effect.

You've really added to this conversation.

Luke, my point is to show that Neely's qualifications are just about as valid as saying I'm the Supreme Captain of the Western Quadrant of the Andromeda Galaxy. Using it as a reason to believe their opinion over anyone else's has been nullified. 

If I were to squint my eyes, you could say that "schools" like the one her certification is supposedly from are running a con on unsuspecting people looking for honest answers to real problems. Honestly, it's gotta stop.  

Long Ranger wrote:

Luke, my point is to show that Neely's qualifications are just about as valid as saying I'm the Supreme Captain of the Western Quadrant of the Andromeda Galaxy. Using it as a reason to believe their opinion over anyone else's has been nullified. 

If I were to squint my eyes, you could say that "schools" like the one her certification is supposedly from are running a con on unsuspecting people looking for honest answers to real problems. Honestly, it's gotta stop.  

its like IIN, it sounds really valid, but its $1G, 1 month and then you have a certification in integrative nutrition, as opposed to people who spend years in school and learning nutrition at a physiological standpoint

we live in the age of pseudoscience unfortunately, I mean, the denial of climate change, antivaxx culture and not to mention flat earthers, its important to value VALID research and science.

Long Ranger wrote:

Luke, my point is to show that Neely's qualifications are just about as valid as saying I'm the Supreme Captain of the Western Quadrant of the Andromeda Galaxy. Using it as a reason to believe their opinion over anyone else's has been nullified. 

If I were to squint my eyes, you could say that "schools" like the one her certification is supposedly from are running a con on unsuspecting people looking for honest answers to real problems. Honestly, it's gotta stop.  

Sure, you could say that.

You could also do a little more homework, read a little more in terms of the further certifications, testimonials, and the fact that Neely is putting all of that work back into the climbing industry, which has many growing little niches.  Of course, regarding my statement, it can easily be met with more skepticism.

Either way, I'm glad you're taking a stand on the MP forum.  

George Foster wrote: climbsci.com/cast/01-protein/

Just listened to this. A bit rambly but I liked the content.

1.5-2 g/kg/day.  20 g/ meal.  Dismissed the idea of the anabolic window, or consuming directly after exercise.  Focus on total protein intake.  BCAAs are a marketing scam.

I like these podcasts. They aren't what I would consider the perfect but very good. One of the co-hosts also has a website with a ton of free info on it about a lot of climbing nutrition topics. https://www.climbingnutrition.com/

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

That is not really why it's referred to as a medical practice, legal practice, etc. It is because it is the practical application of medical knowledge, theory, etc. Medical students start "practicing" (in your sense of the word) after their first didactic year, in the next 3 years of med school during their rotations, then during residency which could be up to 7 years, then maybe a fellowship of another year or 2 (or more). But I agree with the rest of what you said!

Sorry Ryan I was trying to draw a metaphorical comparison not a literal one but yes, medical school involves many years of "practice" as you laid out.

Getting back to diets...I am in the second phase of an Atkins diet, just staying away from carbs as much as possible. I lost 50 pounds last year, had a great summer climbing, put 15 pounds back on over the winter and am now trying to lose 25 pounds to get to about 185 by May 18. So far I have dropped 4 pounds in 1 week. But I have been working out a lot(for me) and I wonder if 185 would be a little on the light side. I am 6'2".

My work outs are 2x weekly resistance done as HIIT, 20-30 sec between sets 3 sets each x 9 different movements, balancing upper/lower body:

Deadlift, Squat, Bench, pull-up, step up w/weight, lunges with weight, bent rows, dumbbell press (flat and inclined), TRX rows, planks, ab chops, band workouts, jumping with med ball, suitcase carry and interval cardio for 20 minutes.

Might look like this each block is done 3 times (27 total sets) It changes every week.

Deadlift 8 rep
Pullup 8 rep
Plank 1 min

Incline Bench 8 rep
Lunge with 40 lb kettlebell
Axe Chops with band 8 rep each side

Bent Row
Step ups (18 inches) with weights
Suitcase carry w/80 lb kettlebell

And:

1-2x weekly climb at gym...warmup on 5.7-5.8 up and down, climb 4-6 hard climbs, climb 5.7-5.8 up and down to failure. Maybe even 5.6 where your hands just open up on huge jugs.

Then try not to eat any carbs, have some eggs for dinner, with broccoli spinach or cauliflower.