I'm Late to the party and there is a lot to read to catch up.
You said "Can't remember who?" Don't take random stupid advice from people,
don't take random belays from stupid people
Listen to Big Gains And The Wide Mouth Bad*ss,
I'm sure That the Gold from rgold will be the same...
do not let go - do not fall !
Warriors Way - is for infants to help them grow up ,,, Arno knows coffee - the rest works but is directed at the entitled easy chair television generation.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - EDIT- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - And now that I have read, 90 %~+90% is in line with what I said.
Downclimbing implies that you can reverse every move. That may not be realistic.
The attempt to push the standard, -the number grade- may mean that you can not reverse every move. The control you are practicing when you are focusing on breathing & footwork has a lot to do with control rgold said it "CALMNESS" being totally present, in the moment, aware of the goal & the circumstances as well as the potential consequences BREATHING STANDING STRONG CALM, GOOD WITH IT Practicing this is to give you the wisdom to stop before you climb past the point of no return
I was just gonna post up something trite about how often you can often "...protect the route or climb the route; but if you hang around five minutes trying to place A1 pro you are gonna need that pro to catch y...."
But who can follow that?
The rest of your post is about right, except the part about Rgold not giving good advice to slightly overthehill Honeys trying out a new gig... I thought hes been spot on. And WHAY nicer saying it than Me.
Are YOU over 50? I dont risk much actual serious injury nowadays... just the silly little stuff... cant find the pics of my various injuries, (... stiches, broke elbows and arms ... little stuff...))
...but ... My philosophy at 65 includes the following:
((am struggling to post an image... doesnt seem to work for me today... there goes the joke...))
So guys, best wishes; and dont make stupid decisions.
Rokjox Teleski wrote: Suburban Dude, Warriors Way is Wonk? NoWHAY.
I was just gonna post up something trite about how often you can often "...protect the route or climb the route; but if you hang around five minutes trying to place A1 pro you are gonna need that pro to catch y...."
But who can follow that?
The rest of your post is about right, except the part about Rgold not giving good advice to slightly overthehill Honeys trying out a new gig... I thought hes been spot on. And WHAY nicer saying it than Me.
Are YOU over 50? I dont risk much actual serious injury nowadays... just the silly little stuff... cant find the pics of my various injuries, (... stiches, broke elbows and arms ... little stuff...))
...but ... My philosophy at 65 includes the following:
((am struggling to post an image... doesnt seem to work for me today... there goes the joke...))
So guys, best wishes; and dont make stupid decisions.
Hey Hey Hey! I never said that Arno's writings arn't important, they are. They put a name to the thing "Warriors Way" is ingrained in some of us! no not wonk And what I said was - - I'm sure that what rgold has to say about falling will be the same, Do Not Fall. & it is!
As to wether, I'm over 50 ? Yes! - oh yeah, & been climbing at least once a month till I was 50 for 40 yrs - if you can make sense of that, with a one year break in '94 for broken heels, & 10 months in '97, after getting married, & to fix a broken neck My parents were Austrian, I have been tied into a rope & climbing since I could walk. I climbed with Fritz W & Hans K, on weekends & summers in the 70s at Mohonk with the Raubenhiemers. At various times I worked for myself or worked "climbing jobs" that allowed me to climb at least 10 days a month for more than 10 years. Now, my toes hurt, so do my feet&ankles, after, if I walk too far carrying weight. I have probably climbed about 300 ft in 2019
The conversation about falling is very interesting. My mentor, as I think I've said before, quite often (rather aggressively) shouts "The leader never falls!!, the leader never falls!!" at me, to which I reply, "Well, why am I bothering to place all this protection then?"... Then other friends tell me I have to learn to fall, then the mentor says "You need to take some falls on your gear so you can trust it" to which I reply "But... but you said the leader never falls, WTF??", another mate says "Carl, you're climbing like you're free soloing" another will giggle insanely at my hilarious screams of "Take! TAAAAKE!!!" when I think I'm going to fall on a sports route and I'm 2.5 inches above my last bolt...
It all gets rather confusing, do I climb within my limits? Do I happily fall all over the place? Do I hold on for dear, dear life and never ever ever ever let go? One thing I know is that for me I generally hate falling, and falling on trad (which I've never done) would be for me akin to a mix of base jumping and having unprotected sex with a whore in a dark alleyway while smoking heroin and injecting meth with a shared needle.
I down climb a lot, which I guess is like jumping rope and having protected sex with a whore in a dark alleyway while drinking Earl Grey tea and eating marshmallows... i.e. it protects me from the horrors and is good exercise too
This is SO WRONG on every level of my sport. I could spend two/three HOURS explaining how it is a totally lame and even dumbass thing to do, say, ask for, supply, the terminology used; the reality that he most CERTAINLY is NOT teaching his "girlfriend" to clean ... yjr worldwide availability of "chain" to "Learn" on...the ethics of placing chains unnecessarily... Chirst.
Argggh.
I cannot even talk with ever so many on this site. The language is no longer a shared resource, and most certainly our experiemces or expectations are not shared...
I do share some of the old language with a few of the old guys. Sometimes that is all, but at least we shared a ethos and a set of standard tools.
Hell, we all even used the same shoes...
I got nothin in common with gym rats. I feel like a chimp watching gibbons.
rgold wrote: Those of us who have been around for a while have extensive histories of retreating from routes for various reasons. Often, but not always, we returned wiser, better equipped, or stronger, and managed to get up. Sometimes there were multiple attempts and retreats. And every now and then we made the decision that the climb wasn't going to be for us.
This is very encouraging for me. We are in Phoenix and have yet to complete a route. We have made two attempts to go to Camelback, first parking was closed due to a rescue, I have no details, today, parking was closed due to overcrowding. Sigh! We went to Sven's Ledge in McDowell, 5.5 sport slab, took the long rope so we could TR harder routes after leading the easy route. Barb got to the first bolt and was headed to the second, could not get anything to stick, very thin. This is when she had a flash back to her fall at Ft. Davis, she was near tears, so I lowered. I went up, of course I can't climb as well as her so it was more bravado on my part, but I made the attempt. I got to the first bolt, yea! I would step up and slide down, mover over, step up/slide down, hmm, put chalk on my hands, stepped up and slid down. Ok, I can't climb slab for nuttin, and it was a 5.5. Threw a bailer biner and went home.
Practice falling: I think I told you the story about our Warriors Way class and I was trying to provide Barbara a soft catch but mistimed my jump and slapped her into the wall really hard? I have given up trying to provide a soft catch, I just catch folks, god and rope stretch will sort things out.
Knowing that I send Barbara to Disneyland when I take a nice long fall I talked my buddy Kevin into doing a whipper catch of me. I was TR on a 5.10, you all know I can't send a 5.10. At the crux I told him to let out a little slack, when I come off this puppy it's going to be a drop, Kevin let out slack, I am looking at it, looking at Kevin, thinking about what is coming, then told Kevin to take rope. Yes, I am a chicken. Good thing we took some rope up. I failed to consider the 33% rope stretch. When I came off it was really kind of a shock, I thought I had that, but my hand just slid off and I was falling. Kevin got me stopped just as my right foot hit the deck, hard, but the rest of me didn't. Kevin and I both looked at each with a holy shit, another foot and I would have been hurt, badly. We have both forever sworn off of practice falls.
While leading Wills Rush in St. George I was feeling pretty froggy. Running out some because the climbing was not hard (even for me). Got to a point where I had to step out of the off width crack to the face and proceed about 6 feet to a nice crack that would take gear well. I stepped out and immediately lost a foothold, started to fall, panic stricken I jammed an arm into the off width, stopped. Heart beating, mouth dry. Regrouped, I didn't fall, but nearly pooped my pants when I realized the last piece I had put it was a good 15 feet below me, now that would have been an epic fall. Glad I didn't.
Pretty much all the falls that Barbara and I have taken have been complete surprises. We are not strong enough climbers to go challenging the mountain, we just want to safely climb up it. So know that one day you will slip off the rock, but because you are well instructed and have practiced belayers know that the fall will be stopped. That's why I think it is very important for a belayer to be aware of the climbers situation. I hate it when the climber goes out of sight, I always let them know that, it's important to let them know that my belay is now a weak stop gap, not an active belay.
Dallas R wrote: I hate it when the climber goes out of sight, I always let them know that, it's important to let them know that my belay is now a weak stop gap, not an active belay.
Dallas, Unless your partner is on something so low angle that the slack from downclimbing would pool up on the rock, you can always tell what they are doing by watching the slack in the rope. It's very common for your partner to be out of sight on many routes, you should get used to doing this. Leave a SMALL curve of extra rope and pay out more as it straightens out. Make sure your partner has the habit of pulling up rope in a controlled and reasonable pace, so that they don't get short-roped by yanking too fast. If they fall, you will see the slack in the rope change immediately and can even sometimes yard some in. It's ALWAYS an active belay.
Keep this thread posted as to your location, if I happen to be overlapping with you guys somewhere, I will try to connect with you to climb. I'm out quite a bit all spring/summer.
Good advice, and you are correct, it's always an active belay. I can just me more precise when I can see my climber. Again correct, they will often disappear behind something, then it becomes a balancing act of tight enough to catch vs short roping. Teamwork is imperative.
. . . . . .two attempts to go to Camelback, first parking was closed due to a rescue, I have no details, today, parking was closed due to overcrowding. Sigh!
Yikes I'm glad to hear you never tried to climb that red pile! The Monk? or some such thing? It has been way to long for me to remember, but that was a chunk of choss! I was always hearing about rescues & carnage from that thing. Don't bother carrying gear up to it it's a fun hike.
The McDowell's can be super fun,
I think we paid for some golfers lunch & drinks to get access to climbs that were off of a golf course... YMMV (Big Hint: LOOK THE PART,-Dress it up spend,$$ , get golf bags for gear, rent a cart & climb on the backside of the formations out of the view of the golfers)
Also Cochise Strong Hold both sides, ( one was way more "Haunting" We had shared dreams/nightmares, the other side more "Hunting" We had big cat tracks that followed us around a formation...still haunts us!.)
Did you get in touch with Tony - did you send him shoes?
Where is he? California somewhere from what i read? get him to show you some stuff.
Wendy, I'm gonna take a bunch of heat for this but, Girl, You have it mixed up pretty good
Roxjox - is ESL not LSD ~\i/~English is his 2nd or 3rd language~\i/~
And Russ Walling ~ Fish~, A true Badas* Wide-Stuff Climbing fuel! his charmed life is like a Billy Joel song or two, ~ He has been tripping since a visit to Tijuana. back in the 80s, some time I think?
Its all good 'cause I think everybody who flings themselves against gravity is tripping, And especially those of us still doing so when getting up to fast from the bend down is dizzying, ` ` ` <&^@Me? I am a bit of all things ` ` `
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` Now a bit of House Keeping: from way back 1st. . . .
Best wishes to you's - OLH, ~I'm glad it is April~ I used to love climbing Ice. Emphasis on 'in the past', My pinky-finger, 1st knuckles were crushed. They & Thumbs still suffer from the 'Bite'.
Ice Is Nice But It is always trying to kill you & that is cold comfort if its comfort at all.
So while some here may have done a bit of thunkin' tools into the plastic blue in a place called Lee Vining? (I Hope, That place is amazing!) The fun of it, ~the type 3 fun of it~ for these sunny weather SoCal fun-hogs, wasn't endearing. It Didn't Stick...
The modern tools. That's the biggest thing that has changed And Ouray Ice Park also the relative acceptance of top roping... Someone still has to get the rope up there!
& michael w. levanduski wrote:
I like to use steel biners for my belay dev. helps to keep your rope and hands clean, none of that black stuff all over the place
Again, welcome on board, I was remiss in not adding the Link; 'Yes,& now there is a specialty 'biner that has a stainless inset to cut the weight'.
I'm assuming you're like most of us: You didn't pick the sport, the sport picked you. You don't have a choice. If you do, then go do something safer, like bird-watching or knitting.
I really came back to this post only because I thought of later... the fact that after the first few initial climbs, I've never felt a top rope or asked for a tight belay. I've never fallen... unless intentionally on a few vertical climbs where I just asked for a rest. I might discover I relied far more heavily than I knew, if that rope was gone... but as a rule, it's a lose belay. I think I'm climbing under my own steam.
Lori, this is a very polite thread compared to most of what you'll find at MP. If anyone posted this statement in any other thread, you'd be assumed to be a troll and would be flamed for 20 pages. It may be that you are a prodigy of some sort, but it sounds to me like you have fallen. And if you're not falling, then you are on routes that simply aren't challenging to you. It would be like me climbing 5.6 at the gym all day long. Sure, I'd never fall. Put me on my first 10d, and I will fall on it every day for a year.
If you are asking for a rest because you can't hang on anymore, that's a proxy for falling. Some people would call it "hang-dogging". Imagine you're leading a route and 10 feet above your last piece of pro. You're arms are feeling pumped and you really need to rest. You cannot call for a rest. You either have to downclimb to your last piece, and hope you can make it before your arms are exhausted, or you will fall.
I just wonder if you are fooling yourself in thinking that you have "never fallen". I think most people would say that when you feel yourself "hit" the top rope (i.e. you feel your weight supported by the belayer), then you have effectively fallen. Anyone else feel free to chime in. Maybe my standards are too strict, but that's how I call it for myself.
One more thing: when leading a route, you are not just climbing it with a nice top rope overhead. You repeatedly climb with 5, 10, or more (100!) feet of slack in the system as you get above your pro. Imagine climbing 10 feet above your last piece and then stopping to put in a piece of pro (which can take a few minutes when you are starting). Imagine doing that with one hand supporting you, trying to fiddle gear in a crack. That's something completely different from climbing on top rope, both physically and psychologically. It's something that surprised me when I first started lead climbing. I'd followed up to 5.7 and felt supremely confident that I'd have no trouble leading 5.4 or 5.5 - boy was I wrong! Obviously, everyone is different, and it may be that you will take to leading like a duck to water. However, approach it with some caution. It is the kind of thing that you cannot understand until you do it.
Greg Opland wrote: If you're still around, look on Mountain Project at the Girlie Man area and give that a go. You probably just need to get comfortable on the different rock.
Already gone, Yuma yesterday bike riding. La Jolla tomorrow kayaking. I have trouble with smearing, if there are dimples or nubbies or even micro-ledges I do ok, but straight up friction still alludes me. And mostly I just need to climb more.
climb 2 smile wrote: Dallas there are a number of moderate climbs and top rope friendly areas in Prescott about 90 minutes from Phoenix. Check out the Granite Dells / Watson Lake areas as well as Sullivan's Canyon. Very easy approach's and many accessible anchors. As an example the Shady Grove area in the Dells has 5.4 and 5.5 leads that share bolted anchors with 5.8 and 5.9 climbs. The Pavilion at Watson Lake has very easy top rope access. The latest Kevin Keith guide to the Dells has all the info you need for that area.
The Promised Lands require a dirt road drive and a hike, but you will probably have the place to yourself ;). The tops of most if not all walls are an easy scramble. Just watch the weather for the Promised Lands you are in a wash that can flash flood.
Now you tell me, just kidding. We have driven around Prescott a number of times, looks like we need to add it to our "destination" list. Maybe next summer, we are headed east this summer.
Buck Rio wrote: Dallas, I don't know how much you are willing to travel, ...
LOL, when I retired we traded our house for an RV, we have been constantly "traveling" for over 7 years. The new term is Glampbagging.
Over the next 3 weeks we plan on skiing at Mammoth Mountain, climb (or at least hike and scout) Alabama Hills, and ski at Heavenly before settling in at Cove Palisades State Park in Oregon for the month of May. I'm trying to nail down RV parks near Alabama Hills, many still appear to be closed for the winter.
dragons wrote: I'm assuming you're like most of us: You didn't pick the sport, the sport picked you. You don't have a choice. If you do, then go do something safer, like bird-watching or knitting.
Lori, this is a very polite thread compared to most of what you'll find at MP. If anyone posted this statement in any other thread, you'd be assumed to be a troll and would be flamed for 20 pages. It may be that you are a prodigy of some sort, but it sounds to me like you have fallen. And if you're not falling, then you are on routes that simply aren't challenging to you. It would be like me climbing 5.6 at the gym all day long. Sure, I'd never fall. Put me on my first 10d, and I will fall on it every day for a year.
If you are asking for a rest because you can't hang on anymore, that's a proxy for falling. Some people would call it "hang-dogging". Imagine you're leading a route and 10 feet above your last piece of pro. You're arms are feeling pumped and you really need to rest. You cannot call for a rest. You either have to downclimb to your last piece, and hope you can make it before your arms are exhausted, or you will fall.
I just wonder if you are fooling yourself in thinking that you have "never fallen". I think most people would say that when you feel yourself "hit" the top rope (i.e. you feel your weight supported by the belayer), then you have effectively fallen. Anyone else feel free to chime in. Maybe my standards are too strict, but that's how I call it for myself.
One more thing: when leading a route, you are not just climbing it with a nice top rope overhead. You repeatedly climb with 5, 10, or more (100!) feet of slack in the system as you get above your pro. Imagine climbing 10 feet above your last piece and then stopping to put in a piece of pro (which can take a few minutes when you are starting). Imagine doing that with one hand supporting you, trying to fiddle gear in a crack. That's something completely different from climbing on top rope, both physically and psychologically. It's something that surprised me when I first started lead climbing. I'd followed up to 5.7 and felt supremely confident that I'd have no trouble leading 5.4 or 5.5 - boy was I wrong! Obviously, everyone is different, and it may be that you will take to leading like a duck to water. However, approach it with some caution. It is the kind of thing that you cannot understand until you do it.
Dragons... thank you. And yes... there are a million possible responses to almost every question/thought but I appreciate them all. Above I was responding to someone's suggestion that leaning back into the harness on top rope... having overly tight belays... relying much on the top rope, is really lazy climbing. Thinking back, I realized that I have slipped or 'fallen' very very few times. and yes... a couple of times hangdogging, because I could--but for the most time, I am climbing without hanging onto the rope. it's there if I fall... not to haul me up a climb.
I have ZERO confidence in my ability to lead at this point. So this starts as one baby step after another... and it won't only be me who calls it a day. Whoever I will be out with will hopefully tell me when I'm out of my element... I have relied so far on a few good professionals who don't hesitate to call me back when I appear to be shaky or unprepared but will push me when I'm just plain scared but able.
But watching my own progression over the last two years, it's starting to read familiar... like all the other climber's stories I've heard and read. It just unfolds, one thing to the next, so some confidence is developing that I won't have to reinvent the wheel. One grade to the next. Ability to relax, breathe, and move from one place to another. Now it's happening for me, too.
The difference may be my asking for help. I'll be back in Josh for another 9 days... 7 of it climbing, and I'm just INTENSIVELY learning right now. Pure education. Half of the time I am toproping anything I can point at and attempt to climb. The other half, on the ground, or walkable rocks, building anchors, belays, placing pro, learning the next step and the next... and learning to become a better partner as well.
And yes... thank you for saying climbing picked me. I'm having this discussion/argument AGAIN with a loved one. Fuck.
Over the next 3 weeks we plan on skiing at Mammoth Mountain, climb (or at least hike and scout) Alabama Hills, and ski at Heavenly before settling in at Cove Palisades State Park in Oregon for the month of May. I'm trying to nail down RV parks near Alabama Hills, many still appear to be closed for the winter.
We stayed here in April and May 2017. They are open year round:
Boulder Creek Mobile Home & RV - 2550 S. Highway US 395, Lone Pine, CA; 760.876.4243
If you don't need hook-ups, plenty of RVs stay in and around the Hills. These people lay out the details including GPS coordinates of where they parked:
If you have extra time and want to do a few TRs, Fossils Falls is not too far and very unique. If you go, it should be more for the oddity of the rock than the quality of the climbs as Alabama Hills will have plenty to keep you busy and offers much better climbing IMHO. Plus all the hiking right at Whitney Portal is right there waiting for you. If you do go, Fossil Falls has a campground too. Four spots are suitable for RVs, but no hook-ups. The nearest sanitary dump station is six miles north of Fossil Falls on U. S. Highway 395 at the Coso Rest Station, at least as of 2017.
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