INTRO TO GUIDING 101 FOR DUMMIES(me)

I've wanted to be a guide for a long time and after hours of scrolling through the forums I feel like I have a pretty general concept of all the cons that will come with guiding like being poor having shitty clients having to worry about your physical health so you can continue guiding etc but at the end of the day non of it has derailed me from wanting to become a guide. maybe real world experience will we'll see.
I've read into some posts about certain companies that will hire you as an intern and help with the certification process and if I'm being honest I'm not sure how legit these programs are and if they are where I could apply for some. It would be awesome to get my foot in the door somewhere at least.
At the end of the day If guiding doesn't seem to workout for me or if its not enough to scarf down a couple cups of ramen each night I'm thinking getting a SPRAT cert would be the next step to be able to work in some trade.
I understand the pay for guiding is low as I'm sure a bombardment of you will comment but as my favorite philosopher says
"When we finally got down to something, which the individual says he really wants to do, I will say to him, you do that and forget the money, because, if you say that getting the money is the most important thing, you will spend your life completely wasting your time. You’ll be doing things you don’t like doing in order to go on living, that is to go on doing things you don’t like doing, which is stupid. Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way......But it’s absolutely stupid to spend your time doing things you don’t like, in order to go on spending things you don’t like, doing things you don’t like and to teach our children to follow in the same track. See what we are doing, is we’re bringing up children and educating to live the same sort of lifes we are living. In order that they may justify themselves and find satisfaction in life by bringing up their children to bring up their children to do the same thing, so it’s all retch and no vomit. It never gets there. And so, therefore, it’s so important to consider this question: What do I desire?"-Alan Watts

In short where is a good place to start with guiding. just jump right into AMGA and head for getting my SPI?
lastly be kind and help me un-code the acronyms you'll inevitably use because I don't know what most of them mean lol

I can't give you advice as I'm not (yet) a guide, but I can tell you what I'm doing: I'm spending a little more time and money to go directly to the Rock Guide certification rather than the Single Pitch Instructor certification. The reason is that the Rock Guide certification doesn't expire: once you have it, you have it. The SPI expires after 3 years.

I don't guide, but I've hired a couple. Both the guides I've hired have been through guide companies – seem like probably on a contract basis, but still handy as a funnel for jobs, I'd bet.

Are there any established guides or guide companies in your area? They might be a good source of information and potentially training and employment down the line, too.

If you really want to be a guide your chances of being hired will greatly increase if you have some sort of accredited certification, either that be an AMGA or PCIA cert. I don't know of any guiding companies that will hire you based solely on your experience, even if you can demonstrate the same standards of skills and knowledge required by their own guides. You might be able to find an outfit that will provide you with an internship in exchange for the certification process. They may also be able to provide the knowledge you'll need and experience of using that knowledge in the field. Along with a type of SPI cert, I would consider getting your wilderness first responder or a wilderness EMT. This will boost your application and resume to the top of the list. Compile a "climbing resume" or experience resume" of the number of pitches and at what grades and style i.e. trad or sport. Even if it's not an impressive grade, but a list showing that you can handle the volume of long days of guiding.  

Robert Sikorski wrote: I don't guide, but I've hired a couple. Both the guides I've hired have been through guide companies – seem like probably on a contract basis, but still handy as a funnel for jobs, I'd bet.

Are there any established guides or guide companies in your area? They might be a good source of information and potentially training and employment down the line, too.

I live in Michigan although traveling wouldn't be an issue for me. as soon as the weather livens up a bit Ill finish the conversion on my van and ill be living out of that. The closest I could think of are the RRG or New river gorge but I'm not all too familiar with guiding companies there.

Travis Bieber wrote: If you really want to be a guide your chances of being hired will greatly increase if you have some sort of accredited certification, either that be an AMGA or PCIA cert. I don't know of any guiding companies that will hire you based solely on your experience, even if you can demonstrate the same standards of skills and knowledge required by their own guides. You might be able to find an outfit that will provide you with an internship in exchange for the certification process. They may also be able to provide the knowledge you'll need and experience of using that knowledge in the field. Along with a type of SPI cert, I would consider getting your wilderness first responder or a wilderness EMT. This will boost your application and resume to the top of the list. Compile a "climbing resume" or experience resume" of the number of pitches and at what grades and style i.e. trad or sport. Even if it's not an impressive grade, but a list showing that you can handle the volume of long days of guiding.  

WFR and WEMT thanks! Any recommendations on websites to look further into this or are they pretty sporadic around the U.S?

Cris Garcia wrote:

WFR and WEMT thanks! Any recommendations on websites to look further into this or are they pretty sporadic around the U.S?

Check out the NOLS website.

Having some kind of of Wilderness medicine cert is a pre req for an SPI. I believe they grudgingly accept Wilderness First aid but prefer a WFR or WEMT.

Travis Bieber wrote: If you really want to be a guide your chances of being hired will greatly increase if you have some sort of accredited certification, either that be an AMGA or PCIA cert. I don't know of any guiding companies that will hire you based solely on your experience, even if you can demonstrate the same standards of skills and knowledge required by their own guides. 

Around here, most outfitters care more about a WFR cert than an SPI. A friend of mine works as a guide an was hired without an SPI at the time because his skills spoke for themselves. Now granted, he was mostly doing the grunt work single pitch cragging type of guiding until he got his SPI. But now he's co-guided some alpine climbs and even guided a route in the black. 

Last summer, I was hired as a climbing instructor for a summer camp (which basically entailed single pitch guiding but with a higher guide:client ratio than is normal in the guiding world) with no climbing certs, just a WFR. My boss, who has guided all over the world including the Himalayas took one look at my climbing resume and said you're hired. My technical skills are good enough to pass an SPI, but I can't afford it and am not really interested in pursuing a career as a guide so I haven't bothered yet until somebody wants to help me cover the cost. 

The point is, you don't always need a climbing cert to get your foot in the door, especially if your technical skills are at or above the SPI level and you have enough grade II and grade III climbs on your resume resume. Without a cert, you will probably be doing mostly the grunt work type of guiding, at least at first but you can work your way up from there. If your employer is really cool and wants to invest in you as an employee, they may even be able help you out with getting certs or other professional development. 

"When we finally got down to something, which the individual says he really wants to do, I will say to him, you do that and forget the money, because, if you say that getting the money is the most important thing, you will spend your life completely wasting your time. You’ll be doing things you don’t like doing in order to go on living, that is to go on doing things you don’t like doing, which is stupid. Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way......But it’s absolutely stupid to spend your time doing things you don’t like, in order to go on spending things you don’t like, doing things you don’t like and to teach our children to follow in the same track. See what we are doing, is we’re bringing up children and educating to live the same sort of lifes we are living. In order that they may justify themselves and find satisfaction in life by bringing up their children to bring up their children to do the same thing, so it’s all retch and no vomit. It never gets there. And so, therefore, it’s so important to consider this question: What do I desire?"-Alan Watts

There is in fact a way to not devote yourself to making money, while still having enough to give you more freedoms to do other things. It's not all or nothing; if you want to not have any money go for it and I think thats totally valid if thats what you choose. However, I reject the premise of this quote, that you have to forget money entirely to be doing what you like doing. The quote seems to say if you are doing anything that would give money some importance, it is the only thing you are worrying about, which is totally untrue. The way I view it, view money as a tool that will let you do the things that you want to do, and keep your priorities in order for the things that really matter to you so that if you do decide to devote some energy into things you don't want to do, it is for the purpose of providing you greater freedoms with the tools that it gives you. Having a guiding job will give you the freedoms of having more time and you get to spend your work helping other people learn how to share in an activity you also love, but comes with the drawback of spending a lot of energy with other peoples climbing goals and less of your own. A professional job will provide you with less time might be working with what you are less passionate about, but greater funds might allow you to more often take trips, and your physical energy can be put toward your own goals. Its all trade offs, and theres a spectrum of what you can choose to give yourself the most freedom.

I've been guiding for 20 years, and I currently manage a large guide service (American Alpine Institute). If you want to make a career out of guiding, you HAVE to do AMGA stuff. Don't waste time on PCIA or PCGI, I'm not aware of any managers at the other large guide services that recognize those certs. That doesn't mean you won't get in at one of those services with PCIA or PCGI, but -- to make a career -- you'll just have to start over with AMGA.

I just had over 100 applications for seven positions. Everyone that I hired this year had an AMGA Rock Guide Course, or an AMGA Alpine Skills Course under their belts + some level of avalanche training. I interviewed 14 people who had those credentials and then, as stated earlier, hired seven.

There are a lot of outfits out there though, that will hire you with an SPI. It's a great start.

If you don't have a WFR or an OEC, you're not serious about getting into guiding. And there's no reason for anyone to give you the time of day, because this is required by a lot of land managers.

I am married, own a house and have two kids. Yes, my wife works full-time. But we get by and even had enough in the bank to bring our kids to Disneyland once. But I have been doing this for 20 years. You'll always feel like you're struggling, but every year -- as you figure it out -- will be mildly easier...but, it will never be easy.

Cris Garcia wrote:

WFR and WEMT thanks! Any recommendations on websites to look further into this or are they pretty sporadic around the U.S?

or NOLS

There are quite a few companies that offer WFR or WEMT. I don't think there is any one company that stands above all others. Look around for the most affordable. But NOLS can be treated as credit hours for a higher education.

I second the recommendation to skip the SPI and go straight to the Rock Guide Course.  

eli poss wrote:

Around here, most outfitters care more about a WFR cert than an SPI. A friend of mine works as a guide an was hired without an SPI at the time because his skills spoke for themselves. Now granted, he was mostly doing the grunt work single pitch cragging type of guiding until he got his SPI. But now he's co-guided some alpine climbs and even guided a route in the black. 

I like Carl a lot, but he's guiding outside of scope more due to a dearth of guides in town than anything else.  

To the OP I'd recommend wfr/spi.  Then work and see if you like guiding.  Don't assume you will.  It's a great job, the money is fine (if you're any good and stick with it), but it's not for everyone.

Tico wrote: I like Carl a lot, but he's guiding outside of scope more due to a dearth of guides in town than anything else.  

To the OP I'd recommend wfr/spi.  Then work and see if you like guiding.  Don't assume you will.  It's a great job, the money is fine (if you're any good and stick with it), but it's not for everyone.

He may be guiding outside the scope of practice, I don't know enough to say, but who get's to decide what somebody's scope of practice is? Certs cost money and not everybody can afford to shell out the cash. I know people who lack the high level certs but are much more qualified than some of the mountain guides I've seen. I'll take the guy without the cert who has first ascents in the Bugaboos or the Himalayas.

Tico wrote: I like Carl a lot, but he's guiding outside of scope more due to a dearth of guides in town than anything else.  

To the OP I'd recommend wfr/spi.  Then work and see if you like guiding.  Don't assume you will.  It's a great job, the money is fine (if you're any good and stick with it), but it's not for everyone.

Plus 1 for the start small and see if you enjoy it. 

Tico wrote: I like Carl a lot, but he's guiding outside of scope more due to a dearth of guides in town than anything else.  

To the OP I'd recommend wfr/spi.  Then work and see if you like guiding.  Don't assume you will.  It's a great job, the money is fine (if you're any good and stick with it), but it's not for everyone.

Tico! When you gunna come climb on my wall?

Turner wrote:

The AMGA 

And why should they decide your scope of practice based on what you pay them? Should one's scope of practiced be determined by their actual skills, or should it be determined by a combination of their skills and the capacity of their wallet? The AMGA exists to make money, which means there is inherently some degree of a conflict of interest.

I think one ought to get a job first and get a feel for it before they drop a bunch of money on certs because they may find that it's not the right thing for them once they actually start working as a guide.

Edit to add:
Here's a thread that gives a small little history lesson, and IMO the AMGA has not always operated with the best integrity with regards to who they will and won't certify. Ultimately, at the end of the day, a lot of people are just operating within a system that is a little dirty, trying to make a living to support themselves and possibly their family.

We don't live in a perfect world, I get it. However, I think it is a poor choice for the industry to adopt certifications as the most prominent indicator of experience and qualification, considering the inherent conflict of interest at hand. I know a lot of people who don't have certs and are plenty qualified to do a wide range of mountain guiding, some of which just can't or won't spend the money to pay for the certs. 

David Kerkeslager wrote: I can't give you advice as I'm not (yet) a guide, but I can tell you what I'm doing: I'm spending a little more time and money to go directly to the Rock Guide certification rather than the Single Pitch Instructor certification. The reason is that the Rock Guide certification doesn't expire: once you have it, you have it. The SPI expires after 3 years.

Should be mentioned:

The SPI course is around $500 and the assessment is around $400. The length of the course is 3 days and the assessment is 2 days. (relevant in terms of lost income from your day job) 

The Rock Guide course is around $3000 and the assessment is around $3000. The length of the course is 10 days and the assessment is 6 days.

BUT, once you have the SPI certification, simply taking the Rock Guide Course will recert your SPI for another 3 years. (gives you 6 years to play around before putting the $3000 into the assessment + the wage loss from other income sources for the length of the course/assessment) 

From my experience teaching climbing at summer camps with an SPI, the institution may (mine did) pay for the cost of the SPI course and test (albeit, they paid in installments over the course of the 3 year certification to ensure I'd stay with them, $300 added to my paycheck at the end of each summer to reimburse me for paying for the course and assessment up front.)

Considering the cost issue for the OP, going the SPI route will me economically feasible, and depending upon where you end up in guiding, the cost of the rock guide course (or the SPI) may be offset by your employer depending upon the type of outfit and your relationship with the owner. No guarantee, but a worthwhile consideration over dumping $6000 into the rock guide course before having a job.

Greg Kosinski wrote: There is in fact a way to not devote yourself to making money, while still having enough to give you more freedoms to do other things. It's not all or nothing; if you want to not have any money go for it and I think thats totally valid if thats what you choose. However, I reject the premise of this quote, that you have to forget money entirely to be doing what you like doing. The quote seems to say if you are doing anything that would give money some importance, it is the only thing you are worrying about, which is totally untrue. The way I view it, view money as a tool that will let you do the things that you want to do, and keep your priorities in order for the things that really matter to you so that if you do decide to devote some energy into things you don't want to do, it is for the purpose of providing you greater freedoms with the tools that it gives you. Having a guiding job will give you the freedoms of having more time and you get to spend your work helping other people learn how to share in an activity you also love, but comes with the drawback of spending a lot of energy with other peoples climbing goals and less of your own. A professional job will provide you with less time might be working with what you are less passionate about, but greater funds might allow you to more often take trips, and your physical energy can be put toward your own goals. Its all trade offs, and theres a spectrum of what you can choose to give yourself the most freedom.

I get what you're saying but you are interpreting poorly. 

Alan Watts was actually a rather wealthy man because what his profession and passion was teaching people about religion/philosophy. It just so happened that that made him money. What he is saying isn't that money is bad and that its the devil instead he is saying whatever you do as a job don't let it be for the money. Don't let what you'll spend the mass majority of your life doing be a waste of time where you'll hate every moment of it just to go on living. Working as a tradesman in different fields im sure Id make a lot of money but it isn't necessarily exactly what I want to do, sure it has aspects of things ill like but at the end of the day there's things that would bring me greater joy granted less pay. I would choose the latter.

I completely agree with you that money is a great tool but it is to be used wisely and as a means to an end not as the end itself.

Jason D. Martin wrote: I've been guiding for 20 years, and I currently manage a large guide service (American Alpine Institute). If you want to make a career out of guiding, you HAVE to do AMGA stuff. Don't waste time on PCIA or PCGI, I'm not aware of any managers at the other large guide services that recognize those certs. That doesn't mean you won't get in at one of those services with PCIA or PCGI, but -- to make a career -- you'll just have to start over with AMGA.

I just had over 100 applications for seven positions. Everyone that I hired this year had an AMGA Rock Guide Course, or an AMGA Alpine Skills Course under their belts + some level of avalanche training. I interviewed 14 people who had those credentials and then, as stated earlier, hired seven.

There are a lot of outfits out there though, that will hire you with an SPI. It's a great start.

If you don't have a WFR or an OEC, you're not serious about getting into guiding. And there's no reason for anyone to give you the time of day, because this is required by a lot of land managers.

I am married, own a house and have two kids. Yes, my wife works full-time. But we get by and even had enough in the bank to bring our kids to Disneyland once. But I have been doing this for 20 years. You'll always feel like you're struggling, but every year -- as you figure it out -- will be mildly easier...but, it will never be easy.

Extremely helpful! Thank you so much for that and it gives me an amazing starting point!

kevin deweese wrote:

Should be mentioned:

The SPI course is around $500 and the assessment is around $400. The length of the course is 3 days and the assessment is 2 days. (relevant in terms of lost income from your day job) 

The Rock Guide course is around $3000 and the assessment is around $3000. The length of the course is 10 days and the assessment is 6 days.

BUT, once you have the SPI certification, simply taking the Rock Guide Course will recert your SPI for another 3 years. (gives you 6 years to play around before putting the $3000 into the assessment + the wage loss from other income sources for the length of the course/assessment)

From my experience teaching climbing at summer camps with an SPI, the institution may (mine did) pay for the cost of the SPI course and test (albeit, they paid in installments over the course of the 3 year certification to ensure I'd stay with them, $300 added to my paycheck at the end of each summer to reimburse me for paying for the course and assessment up front.)

Considering the cost issue for the OP, going the SPI route will me economically feasible, and depending upon where you end up in guiding, the cost of the rock guide course (or the SPI) may be offset by your employer depending upon the type of outfit and your relationship with the owner. No guarantee, but a worthwhile consideration over dumping $6000 into the rock guide course before having a job.

Yet another extremely helpful comment! I have to say, since I got on MP this has to be one of the most constructive comment sections I've seen. Thanks All!