Somebody stole my cam at Mescalito

5.Seven Kevin wrote: The real question is why the fuck are you climbing on our wet sandstone?? Have you not seen the 5000 threads in the last month?? Where will you be climbing during the next rain so i can come booty your backpack at the base??

Fuck the wet rock police I'll be the wet rock swat team

Perhaps a real question is reading comprehension - as I read it the rain started as they came down the route and came the day after it stopped to retire their rope.

Tradiban wrote:
Jesus guys. If there's a possible way to return the gear to the owner regardless of circumstances, you do it, period. Get it out and post on MP, ST, ask around, whatever, the point it's your moral duty to do so, do your due diligence. I don't care if the cam is 6 years old, you make an attempt. Likely no one will claim it anyway and then it's yours.

Keeping it and not attempting to return anything is a reflection on your character. Have some integrity.

In addition there is also a legal duty. States have laws about abandoned property and the duty to try a reunited with the proper owner.

As for the OP, I had the same thing happen 30 years ago. Partner dropped a nut that fell to the base of the climb. Our packs were at the base. Got back and the nut was gone. It was pretty easy see us as we were on the route and could easily talk with us. Yes the climbing community is a community. And like any community there are perps.

Arrrrgggg beware of the dirty pirates of RR. Behold!!! BOOTY!

Yea kinda lame having stuff taken like that. I haven't had climbing gear stolen - but other things and it's Uber frustrating 

Isn’t Red Rock closed until June? Local said. 

Booty booty booty booty booty booty booty booty booty booty!

I feel better now.

Allen Sanderson wrote:

Perhaps a real question is reading comprehension - as I read it the rain started as they came down the route and came the day after it stopped to retire their rope.

In addition there is also a legal duty. States have laws about abandoned property and the duty to try a reunited with the proper owner.

I'm glad you were here in town for the past month to know our entire previous forecast, the heaviest winter, precipitation and snow we've EVER had, in a canyon, that OP is climbing on a mostly north facing wall. Fuck outa here utahboi

Tradiban wrote: Jesus guys. If there's a possible way to return the gear to the owner regardless of circumstances, you do it, period. Get it out and post on MP, ST, ask around, whatever, the point it's your moral duty to do so, do your due diligence. I don't care if the cam is 6 years old, you make an attempt. Likely no one will claim it anyway and then it's yours.

Keeping it and not attempting to return anything is a reflection on your character. Have some integrity.

Who wants to bet that if the prevailing opinion on this thread was that the cam should be returned, Tradiban would have posted a "tough luck you abandoned it" response?  Now back to pooping....

Kyle Edmondson wrote:
Who wants to bet that if the prevailing opinion on this thread was that the cam should be returned, Tradiban would have posted a "tough luck you abandoned it" response?  Now back to pooping....

Oh shit! The sport climbers finally figured me out?!?!?!?!

This is a great thread for a rainy morning.

Climbing on wet sandstone ethics aside (especially a face-hold heavy route like Y2K...............), your gear wasn’t stolen, it was bootied. I guarantee that if you spend the next couple of days walking the bases of the RR trade routes, you will find some gear that has been left.

Your party left the piece behind. If it was such a big deal to get that cam back that your partner couldn’t clean, you should have just fixed your rope at the top of the pitch, and rapped down yourself.

Yes, it may be morally right for the bootying party to post up, BUT I think it is totally discretionary. Pavel P, you should have posted a request instead of starting a childish, whiny armchair, accusatory thread. It sucks that your cam is gone, but treat this like a lesson. Place your pieces better, or teach your partner to be a better cleaner, or something else.

Stop whining, stop climbing wet face routes, and move on with your life.

Pavel P wrote:

And a carabiner (in an excellent shape) on the cam must have told him that the cam was left with the intention to be recovered later.

Far more likely is that it told him the n00b gumby who left the cam also forgot to remove the biner.

 Clearly it was not a bail piece (too low above the ground), and clearly it was stuck, not forgotten.

Clearly? Apparently not.

So, why would somebody leave a biner on a cam if he was not going to clean it later?

Incompetence.

Booty is something you pick up that people abandoned. This piece was not abandoned. 

Obviously many disagree.

I don't want any cam other than my own. Thank you for the offer.

Maybe time to stop digging the hole you're finding yourself in.

[Edit for clarity]

So you got gear stuck, left your belonging scattered about the base of the route, got more gear stuck, left it for a few days...
Thats booty.
And more importantly, thats part of climbing.

Get your skills dialed if you want to avoid loosing more gear to the pirates of the desert.
Yarg.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Props to Josh.

Greg D wrote: Would you give him props in the scenario I wrote about?

I'd give you some chicken to put all this Saltiness you've been carrying around....

Greg D wrote: Would you give him props in the scenario I wrote about?

Sounds to me like there are two sides to the story. 

I'm not picking any sides other than don't abandon your gear and then confront the people nice enough to get it out (which benefits all the rest of us).

If you politely and humbly ask for it back, not a problem unless they are a dick (but never a thief).

Good one 5seven-kevin.

I thought it was blatant trickery to sneak off with those cams, very different than booty.  Apparently he has used that strategy other times as mentioned in this thread.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Sounds to me like there are two sides to the story. 

I'm not picking any sides other than don't abandon your gear and then confront the people nice enough to get it out (which benefits all the rest of us).

If you politely and humbly ask for it back, not a problem unless they are a dick (but never a thief).

Rap off the first pitch on a two pitch climb. Then leave the crag immediately as to not ever cross paths with the other party?  

Greg D...post up the climber/guide's name. We can handle it.

Pavel P...too sad about you getting your cam stolen. It would have been the right thing for the perpetrator to call up to you and ask about the cam.

Pavel P, the OP,
Thank you!  This might be the best thread ever?  Whatever the value of that cam was, if you split that cost by the number of people entertained by this, it has more that paid for itself!  haha!  
I have more bootied cams than I know what to do with.  If you're ever down in Bend/ Smith Rock, hit me up and I'll donate one to your cause for the entertainment.  This is a real offer.

Yeah, because rapping off the first pitch of the Hop Route (which most people do) is really sneaky. And yeah, crazy that once we saw how glacially slow the junk-show party of three climbing it caterpillar-style was moving, that we'd decide to move along and actually get some more climbing done. What, doesn't everyone who climbs the Hop Route want to choss-a-neer to the top of the Necromancer, bushwhack back down, and even wait in line to do so?

Meanwhile these guys apparently had some vague plan to go back up and get the stuck cam out (but not before finishing their big adventure first) - a cam they apparently really care about (but don't mind abandoning... temporarily of course! They just forget to leave a 'biner on it - that is, the "Pavel P Universal Symbol of Non-abandoned Gear").

And, obviously, duh, every other climber that approaches should know a) that the junk is their junk, b) to just deal with/climb through said junk without complaint, c) that they'll be back for the junk (but later, of course, when they're done with their Very Important Rock Climb), d) that they're fully capable of getting the junk out (just ignore that they tried earlier and failed), and e) that if you do get the junk out you're expected to wait around to deliver it in person - otherwise you'll have to face their man-child threats and 'tude back at the parking lot (and internet hurt feelings six years later). My bad!

Josh Janes wrote: Yeah, because rapping off the first pitch of the Hop Route (which most people do) is really sneaky. And yeah, crazy that once we saw how glacially slow the junk-show party of three climbing it caterpillar-style was moving, that we'd decide to move along and actually get some more climbing done. What, doesn't everyone who climbs the Hop Route want to choss-a-neer to the top of the Necromancer, bushwhack back down, and even wait in line to do so?

Meanwhile these guys apparently had some vague plan to go back up and get the stuck cam out (but not before finishing their big adventure first) - a cam they apparently really care about (but don't mind abandoning... temporarily of course! They just forget to leave a 'biner on it - that is, the "Pavel P Universal Symbol of Non-abandoned Gear").

And, obviously, duh, every other climber that approaches should know a) that the junk is their junk, b) to just deal with/climb through said junk without complaint, c) that they'll be back for the junk (but later, of course, when they're done with their Very Important Rock Climb), d) that they're fully capable of getting the junk out (just ignore that they tried earlier and failed), and e) that if you do get the junk out you're expected to wait around to deliver it in person - otherwise you'll have to face their man-child threats and 'tude back at the parking lot (and internet hurt feelings six years later). My bad!

Talking less will help you appear less guilty.

This is actually a very interesting and entertaining case study.

No one around, no biner on it - clearly booty.
Single pitch route, one party on it, stuff at the base - probably something that's going to be worked on on the way down - not booty.
Pavel's circumstance is on the unknowable line (from the perspective of the retriever) between abandoned and going to be worked on.  Pavel was several pitches up and it was too windy for people down below to communicate with him.  The gear retriever came down on the side of booty.  I personally would have taken the biner as evidence that the situation was ongoing and left the cam with the pack.  If the cam didn't belong to the pack's owner, then they got a surprise gift.
But I also don't see much reason to fault the person who got it unstuck and had no way to really know if it belonged to the party above, or if some previous party had abandoned it.