Anchor: Why did my cam popped out while weighted?

My initial thoughts would be the that cam swiveled and changed directions as the climber's rope pulled it to the right, but hearing it described on the internet is always a little unclear. Two things I would do: build an anchor with a cordalette and anchor myself into a single masterpoint- this would be to simplify things and alleviate any dynamic forces to the belayer's tether if a piece fails.  I would also clip the black cam with a draw rather than just a carabiner-  it will help alleviate the cam shifting directions as the climber leaves the belay (however it would still be questionable if that piece would hold if the climber actually fell on it).

This is also a good argument for three-piece anchors.  This situation is the reason for building redundancy. Glad everyone stayed safe. 

Fran M wrote: I hesitate taking someone suggesting a thngalette seriously..
 but making the anchor with one rope might make more sense on the master-point tie-in version. I build the anchor with with both to keep a longer length available to the leader. Also cause I am hanging off two points as soon as I have placed two pieces and I can call off belay and finnish the anchor afterwards.

It’s really funny to me to hear you say that you won’t take someone seriously who uses a tried and proven anchor method, albeit not one that everyone uses, yet you’re trying to figure out why your anchor pieces are popping. 

mediocre wrote:

It’s really funny to me to hear you say that you won’t take someone seriously who uses a tried and proven anchor method, albeit not one that everyone uses, yet you’re trying to figure out why your anchor pieces are popping. 

He is new here. He'll eventually realize that Tradiban usually knows what he is taking about when it comes to trad and he should not anger him. Just don't start talking about bolting an anchor next to that flake or Tradiban will get cranky.

John Clark wrote:

I mean, he thought he had good placements and was a very competent and experienced trad leader. He then had 5 cams zipper out of serenity crack on the crux pitch, which has ideal cam placements. He went back and relearned how to place cams because he realized he was placing a lot of tipped out and overcammed gear, which is not full strength. Also, having all your gear in one feature that you have to pound on to check should be a red flag as well. I recommend taking a peek at the huge pack of paper that comes with every cam (also online at https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-bdel/default/dw4ed898ac/instructions/F16/MM5865_F_Camalot_IS-WEB.pdf) and go back to books like the john long Anchors book and peruse the chapter on gear placements again. It may seem like beginner stuff, but giving yourself a checkup on basics is healthy and prevents development of sloppy habits that put you in a pickle. Maybe go do a couple pitches of C2 aid too, it helps a ton.

Thanks, I will check it out. I have aided before on granite. Maybe i will try it on limestone

It’s really funny to me to hear you say that you won’t take someone seriously who uses a tried and proven anchor method, albeit not one that everyone uses, yet you’re trying to figure out why your anchor pieces are popping.

Oh, we did carry a 5m cordelette for the pitches in which we weren't swapping leads and it worked great. If I chose to use the rope then that's it. Also, why turn this into another cordelette vs rope anchor thread?

This is also a good argument for three-piece anchors.  This situation is the reason for building redundancy. Glad everyone stayed safe.

Clipping the piece as a redirect at the sling instead of the carabiner and using a quickdraw i took note of. And agree on the case for three pieces. Thanks

also, since presumably all cams were placed in this flake, maybe a good takeaway is diversifying anchor placements to utilize multiple features. especially using double ropes and rope anchors, that should be more doable.

Considering all the insights on flakes, yes, totally.

Looks expando.

Ted Pinson wrote: I stopped reading there, because you had already answered your own question.

Took the words out of my mouth

This would not have happened if you anchored to two bolts instead

Darren Mabe wrote: This would not have happened if you anchored to two bolts instead

This may be the most blatant troll I have ever seen

Fran M wrote: I first cloved the right-most piece and weighted it. then I placed the left piece

Weighting just a single piece at the top of a pitch gives me the shivers. Was there not a stance there? If so, fer goodness sake, place TWO pieces before hanging on the not-yet-an-anchor.

It sounds like you may have only checked for downward pull. Did you check that the cam was good for an outward pull? From what I gathered from your post, you redirected the right most cam and the leader started climbing out towards the right, if the cam wasn't redirected with a long enough sling and wasn't placed for outward pull, maybe this led to its failure.
I'm just going to add that multiple people have critiqued your anchor as a cluster (I tend to agree), and yet you continue to write off the idea of a cordalette. While not my favorite anchor choice, I would surely choose it over your complicated rig.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Weighting just a single piece at the top of a pitch gives me the shivers. Was there not a stance there? If so, fer goodness sake, place TWO pieces before hanging on the not-yet-an-anchor.

How is it different from weighing a piece to rest while leading?`Cloving the (already placed) second piece was the next thing I did.

simplyput . wrote: It sounds like you may have only checked for downward pull. Did you check that the cam was good for an outward pull? From what I gathered from your post, you redirected the right most cam and the leader started climbing out towards the right, if the cam wasn't redirected with a long enough sling and wasn't placed for outward pull, maybe this led to its failure.
I'm just going to add that multiple people have critiqued your anchor as a cluster (I tend to agree), and yet you continue to write off the idea of a cordalette. While not my favorite anchor choice, I would surely choose it over your complicated rig.

Yes I pulled it both downwards and sideways. Extending the redirect I took note already, but I am inclined to the flake-limestone-cam path.

I've noted the critiques and several "thumbs up" to those comments and I see the cordelette vs rope anchor is a very sensible topic in North America. I prefer using the rope in general, and carry a cordelette some times for different reasons such as sappy trees, anchors when block leading, bail material, natural protection points.

My anchor may look complicated but if you give it a try, it is very simple to build and the sequence is intuitive, minimizes exposure and mistakes. 

Also keep in mind the pictures are meant to illustrate my words and do not resemble the real thing. I still take point of the messy anchor, but I don't think a cordelette would be the answer.

Dude. Make the masterpoint hold your leader's fall and your PAS! Redirecting anything away from the masterpoint eliminates half of its purpose as THE MASTERPOINT!

No one knows if you don't.  No one was there and saw it but you.

K.I.S.S.

Fran M wrote:

How is it different from weighing a piece to rest while leading?`Cloving the (already placed) second piece was the next thing I did.

Notice I asked if there was a stance. THAT'S why this is different than a pumped-out leader resting on a single piece. In my world you don't hang on a single piece if it's not absolutely necessary.

Fran M wrote:
How to avoid this in the future? ... carry the headlamp on the helmet and inspect the inner surface of the flake? ...

Without headlamp, you could try to dig your fingers in there and feel for any irregular or hidden flaring features or other oddities. Have saved me from poor placements many a time.

Tradiban wrote: K.I.S.S.

To make a K.I.S.S belay you should attempt to create a belay with the minimum of gear, meaning using your rope(s) instead of slings, as few krabs as possible (just one quickdraw split between two placements) and as fast as possible (to remove a 240cm sling, unravel it, place it in multiple pieces, tie knots etc takes time).  Very often climbers waste a lot of time extending their belays so they can see down the climb, when setting a belay close to the gear would be fine (this judgement call should be based on the second and what the pitch was like, but if the second is OK, and the pitch was OK why waste time extending out the belay?). https://andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/k.i.s.s_belays

I agree, skipping the thingalette when unnecessary.

EDIT1: The whole article makes very good points:

First off there is no standard operating procedure to climbing and every belay is and will be different.  All there are a set of guidelines designed to primarily guide the novice into safe practices.  As you gain experience you will find that often these practices are not flexible as you need them to be, so you do it the way YOU deem to be safe, i.e. you break the rules based on your own assessment of what is needed.  If you’re a novice then this is not a good idea, as you need to know, understand and have practiced the rules before you start breaking them.  Instead go by the book, use slings and cord, three pieces equalised etc, but just get good at it.  Only when you’re belays as text book and fast can you begin to understand where you can break the rules a little.
Why rush?
Well for me it’s simple: I like climbing, I don’t like sitting waiting to climb, and the more climbing that I can do the better, plus when it comes to moving fast on a multi pitch route most of us can only lead at one speed, so saving the time in between is the best option if you want to get home in the light.

EDIT2: For the anchor sketches, I actually used the TWO cordelettes I own! Oh the irony

Fran M wrote: 

Adam, I guess you refer to the rope anchor? give it a try. Then tell me if its complicated... Using slings, sounds like the thingalette above.

 

Anchor is an anchor to this old fool...

Gunkiemike wrote:

Notice I asked if there was a stance. THAT'S why this is different than a pumped-out leader resting on a single piece. In my world you don't hang on a single piece if it's not absolutely necessary.

If it "gives you the shivers" or "doesn't exist in your world" to hung on a single piece (which by the way is backed up by the equally solid gear placed before resting) then maybe you should re-evaluate your placement skills too. Honestly, If you don't trust your placements to put your body weight on it, it is true. As simple as that.

I hope you are not offended. This is the point of my initial question: I weighed a placement (which I trusted fully just any of the other ones I placed before) but it popped out... I wanted to get some ideas on why. I learned something new: Huge flakes can expand (or even lever off!) and it's probably a good idea for me to go practice aiding on limestone.

Here is some detail of the anchor-building sequence which was not necessary for my initial question, but relevant to your comment:
After placing and clipping the left and right pieces of the anchor (each with one my double ropes), I converted the right rope into a clove hitch and weighted it. This means that if said piece failed, the other one, wich was 1 meter below and at my waist height, would catch my fall.
The right piece eventually failed, and the other piece caught me albeit not through the belay, as it was already cloved as well.