GriGri 2 Cam Didn't lock on lower - Questions

Yes- I searched and read other threads about GriGri failures and didn't find the answer to my question.  Read on:

Hello all,  I had a strange occurrence in the gym today.  I'm fairly certain it was user error on my part but I'd like a further explanation to decide if I should go back to using an ATC instead of a GriGri.  I have been climbing/belaying for many years using an atc.  I have been belaying with a GriGri 2 for about a year.   I've never really liked the method of defeating the camming device on the GriGri 2 by suppressing it with my thumb while playing out slack.  Recently I have gone to a method of simultaneously flipping in slack into the front of the device while playing out slack out of the top of the device as the climber climbs.  I take a step towards the wall if I need to provide more slack for clips.  This seems to be working well and I don't have to take my brake hand off the device or hold down the locking mechanism with my break thumb.  Today however, I was very puzzled when my partner said take at the top of a 50' route at the gym.   I can recall his weight being on the rope before I was "ready".  Meaning, I usually backup and actually take his weight not be surprised by it.   I am certain i had my brake hand on below the device and my other hand on the climber side of the device.  Here is the part that caused my concern and the nature of my question.  I lowered my partner and to my immediate surprise, I did not use the handle at all.  The cam never engaged.   I lowered him all the way to the ground in a controlled manner and held the rope down by my leg for extra friction.  He was not hurt.  I had no discomfort or rope burn in the lower.  This seems impossible so I was very confused.   I am 90% certain that I checked several times that I did not load the device backwards.  Now I'm doubting myself.  I checked to see if my GriGri was recalled.  It was not. The rope was a 9.8mm non-dry Elderid about a year old. So my question is: If I loaded the device backward, would I be able to belay a lead climber all the way to the chains (he took no falls) and lower him in a fairly controlled manner?  Or is it possible to defeat the cam, when properly loaded, by holding the climber side of the rope (I have read the other threads about this... so i know its a thing) and the cam stays disengaged throughout a controlled lower to the ground?  Moving forward I will not put my hand on the climber side of the rope.  However, I am still curious for a mechanical explanation of how in the heck the cam didnt engage.  Thanks for answering my questions and not insulting my belay skills.  I will ensure I am appropriately retrained on the device or go back to the ATC.

Yes, holding the climber's side of the rope can prevent the cam from engaging. The cam needs a certain amount of force to engage, which is why it can stop a fall but you can also slowly feed out slack without disengaging the cam manually. When you hold onto the climber's side of the rope, you're reducing the force "felt" by the cam. Combined with super high friction on many gym belays (like a fat fuzzy rope double-wrapped around a belay bar; not sure what your gym's set-up is obv, just an example) you could easily lower your partner without ever engaging the cam. I can't tell you this is definitely what happened, I wasn't there, but you asked if it's possible and it is. 

Holding the climber's side of the rope is also really bad technique on an ATC, and can have disastrous consequences with either device, so whichever you choose to belay with going forward you should really focus on ending this bad habit.

Glad you're both ok, good luck!

For real, the device was backwards or you should use an atc.

Em Cos wrote: Yes, holding the climber's side of the rope can prevent the cam from engaging. 

The part that baffles me here is Chris Sharma is holding the climber side of the rope in the Petzl video demonstration for "Paying Out Slack". 

Chris Jones wrote:

The part that baffles me here is Chris Sharma is holding the climber side of the rope in the Petzl video demonstration for "Paying Out Slack". 

Yeah, for paying out slack.  If you keep watching, they demonstrate what happens if you grab the climber’s side (and, in this case, let go of the brake), which is...wait for it...you defeat the cam.

You should not go back to an ATC, because this kind of poor technique is even more dangerous if you’re using an ATC, as you need both hands on the brake side of the rope to hold a climber.  Unfortunately, you can develop complacency from using a Grigri (the girl in the video keeps her hand on the climber’s side when catching a fall later), as it is easy to catch and hold a climber with one hand as long as the cam engages, which is why I believe everyone should LEARN to lead belay on an ATC.  You have to drill it until it’s an automatic reflex that as soon as the climber falls, your left hand LEAVES the climber’s end and reinforces your brake hand.  There’s no reason you should have had a hand on the climber’s end when lowering.

Chris Jones wrote:

The part that baffles me here is Chris Sharma is holding the climber side of the rope in the Petzl video demonstration for "Paying Out Slack". 

Unless you've figured out a way to push rope, there isn't a way to pay out slack on an unweighted rope without pulling it from the climber's side.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Yeah, for paying out slack.  If you keep watching, they demonstrate what happens if you grab the climber’s side (and, in this case, let go of the brake), which is...wait for it...you defeat the cam.

You should not go back to an ATC, because this kind of poor technique is even more dangerous if you’re using an ATC, as you need both hands on the brake side of the rope to hold a climber.  Unfortunately, you can develop complacency from using a Grigri (the girl in the video keeps her hand on the climber’s side when catching a fall later), as it is easy to catch and hold a climber with one hand as long as the cam engages, which is why I believe everyone should LEARN to lead belay on an ATC.  You have to drill it until it’s an automatic reflex that as soon as the climber falls, your left hand LEAVES the climber’s end and reinforces your brake hand.  There’s no reason you should have had a hand on the climber’s end when lowering.

I appreciate the distinction but it is not always so clear what role you are playing as a belayer.  It is a fluid situation where the lead belayer is ready to pay out slack at a moments notice.  It the instance I describe, my partner was out of sight over a roof and I was using the feel of the rope to determine if he was moving up, clipping or clipping the chains.  I was at the ready to pay out slack at all times to avoid short roping him.  When the incident occured, I payed out slack, he happened to be clipping the shuts at the top (which I didnt know if he was at the last clip or the shuts). He said take and sat down in one quick motion.  This was not a fall.  I really don't understand how I would keep my hand off the climber side of the rope and be ready to give enough slack for a clip.  Especially when the climber is out of sight.  I will ask the coaches at the gym for a refresher lesson soon.

Also: I learned to belay with a figure 8, then stitch plate, then ATC.  I was never taught to put two hands on the brake hand.  Only one.  This was in the 80s & 90s.  I guess the teaching is constantly evolving.  Grigri's had not yet been invented. 

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Unless you've figured out a way to push rope, there isn't a way to pay out slack on an unweighted rope without pulling it from the climber's side.

My point exactly.  If he blows the clip, and you are paying out slack, you have gone from using proper to horrible technique in an instant.  What if this happens out of the belayers view?

When your climber says "take", or falls, or weights the rope, immediately move your left hand to the brake strand. This not only doubles up your grip on the brake, but keeps you from holding the climber's side of the rope when you shouldn't. If you've got years of muscle memory not doing this, it will take some time to relearn it, but it can be done. 

Ted Pinson wrote:

 ...if you’re using an ATC, as you need both hands on the brake side of the rope to hold a climber. 

Wrong.

I'm not sure my left hand has ever touched the brake strand during a fall.

JaredG wrote:

Wrong.

I'm not sure my left hand has ever touched the brake strand during a fall.

Same. And one of my partners who whips on a regular basis is 190 pounds. I've never had a problem catching him with a tube style device and one hand. It's possible people are thinking about a scenario with a modern super skinny rope and an old style ATC. That could be sketchy but so would a Grigri 1. An ATC-XP or one of the other new tube style devices designed for skinny ropes should be fine though.

Gris have sucked for a long time.

Sounds to me like you threaded it backwards.  

JaredG wrote:

Wrong.

I'm not sure my left hand has ever touched the brake strand during a fall.

How about when they are hanging or when you are lowering them?  An ATC will lock during a fall when the rope is pinched behind the belay biner, but trying to hold a person’s weight or lower them with 1 hand is sketch.  I’m not saying you necessarily need both hands on the brake to actually arrest the fall, but you definitely want both of them there by the time your climber is hanging.  The number of people who have been dropped because their belayer lost control when their hand was pinched by the ATC, rope slipped, etc speaks to the need for both hands on the brake when actually holding a person’s weight.

FWIW I have never caught a fall (ATC or Gri) and NOT ended up with both hands on the brake.

You're gonna fkin die. Take up underwater basket weaving.

JJK wrote:

How many?  Where did you get your number?

>1, but ok...

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213283/Fall-on-Rock-Inadequate-Belay-No-Helmethttps://www.climbing.com/news/unbelayvable-a-missed-catch/https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/108856606/climber-decked-at-momentumhttps://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/113914351/hand-caught-in-atc-while-belaying

I tell all new climbers to yank on the climbers side before the climber leaves the ground to make sure it locks\catches on whatever they are belaying with.

Chris Jones wrote:

My point exactly.  If he blows the clip, and you are paying out slack, you have gone from using proper to horrible technique in an instant.  What if this happens out of the belayers view?

Once I was belaying a climber with a Grigri when it started to rain. I couldn't look up because raindrops would fall in my eyes, so I was belaying by watching the rope movement in front of me. There was a sudden yank on the rope, so I reflexively paid out an arm full of slack from years of not short roping my climber. But the rope kept pulling up, so I let go of my guide hand right away and locked down my brake hand. The cam on the Grigri engaged, and I held the climber's surprise fall. All this happened in a split second. There was no time to think, it was purely reflex. The climber had fallen a little further due to the arm full of slack I'd given him, but the Grigri held.

F loyd wrote: I tell all new climbers to yank on the climbers side before the climber leaves the ground to make sure it locks\catches on whatever they are belaying with.

Agree completely.
Agree with the "yank". Agree with the "whatever".

Not just for new climbers. I do a "physical test" of the rope thru the belay device every time, by yanking on the climber's end.

Perhaps that's less important with an ATC (because visual inspection is less likely to get confused), but I do the test anyway -- just so I stay in the habit of making the yank test with the GriGri.

Because with a GriGri I think the most dangerous mistake is to thread the rope in the wrong direction (which the physical test will reveal).

Nice that the original poster on this thread shows awareness of the problem - (even if for those of us who were not present, mis-threading of the rope thru the GriGri seems like the obvious explanation).

Ken

P.S. When using an Auto-belay in the gym, I also do a "physical test" of my connection and the device's performace, by jumping off a short ways above the ground. After the device and my harness connection pass the test, then I climb higher toward the top.

F loyd wrote: I tell all new climbers to yank on the climbers side before the climber leaves the ground to make sure it locks\catches on whatever they are belaying with.

The key here being to yank the correct rope. I've seen many people yank the rope coming out of the top of the grigri, which of course locks. The question through is whether the climber is tied to this rope. Given the rope can be in a pile on the ground, the only solution it to grab the rope near the tie in knot and slide hand back to the grigri, then yank. This in turn means putting the grigri on the rope close to the leader, even if the first bolt is 20 ft up. 

I'm guessing, but I wonder if several incorrectly threaded grigri incidents are of this form, ie not having a brain fart and threading the thing backwards, but incorrectly identifying which way the rope is running. 

I think it is mentioned in the Petzl video: The world's worst belayer. (No time to watch it now). If the climber doesn't fall but sits down slowly and softly on the rope, the cam doesn't always engage. Combine that with your hand pulling a bit on the climber's side of the rope and maybe a bunch of friction in the draws, and it could get ugly. Lesson learned: The Grigri is not an automatic belay device, it is only an assist belay device and you have to keep one hand on the brake side all the time. A light pull like this is easilly held with your brake hand, so there is no danger.

Or you had it threded backwards of course.