Lowering with a Guide ATC?

I tried my first multi-pitch climb this weekend!

I led up, built an anchor and start to belay my second (my kid). He got about half way up and then realized he left the backpack (with my lunch!) on the ground so I had to lower him (I was hungry). Of course I was using a Guide ATC...

I realized I'd be there all day after about five minutes of ratcheting him down one inch at at time, so I rigged it to lower (redirected the brake line up over a 'biner, tied a prussic to it and then a sling through the hole to lever up and over controlled by my foot.

Why in the world would anyone use a Guide ATC when a GriGri is SO MUCH EASIER! Yes, it's heavier, but unless that's a big concern what other reason would someone use a Guide ATC over a GriGri?

I agree, lowering in Guide Mode can be a pain.

Best use for Guide Mode is belaying 2 seconds.

The DMM Pivot was created to address this issue.

https://youtu.be/twOt5HG7Nf4

Two followers. Otherwise GriGri is the way to go. Apparently the Gigi is a good tool for two followers and being able to lower easily, but I’ve not tried it. 

David Dentry wrote:He got about half way up and then realized he left the backpack (with my lunch!) on the ground so I had to lower him (I was hungry). Of course I was using a Guide ATC...

A partner once had a similar thing happen in a party of three only it was a forgotten water bottle mid-way up pitch 1.  They came away with just a pinched thumb due to an ill-conceived lowering technique.

There is a huge MP thread somewhere about various ways to do this with an ATC in guide mode. My favored way for a long free-hanging lower involves techniques used in other self-rescue circumstances.

LSD lower is my favorite when using a plate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vB7tMKLh-g 

Can you take a picture of your rigging?? There’s a super easy way to lower on a guide... it requires a sling. 

You ask a very good question, and one that every climber who is using a plate style belay device needs to know how to do.
Most of the time, your second will be able to give you a tiny bit of slack. Assuming that can happen, the easiest way to lower someone is with the "Load Strand Direct", or "LSD", as mentioned by Adam.

Here's a blog post that describes how to do it and has a link to a video showing the technique.
https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/need-to-lower-from-an-atc-guide-try-some-lsd

Belayers have dropped their seconds when attempting to lower him or her, while belaying off of the anchor, using an ATC in guide (plaquette or autoblock) mode. Yes, you can go through the convoluted rigging process to make the lowering more controlled. Or you can just belay your second(s) off of your harness, redirecting the rope(s) up through the anchor or an overhead bolt or piece of gear. Then you can use any belay gadget to safely lower your second(s). And if your second leads through, he or she can stay on belay without the belay being changed. And he or she already has the first piece clipped, so there can’t be any factor-two fall onto the belay position.

John Godino wrote: You ask a very good question, and one that every climber who is using a plate style belay device needs to know how to do.
Most of the time, your second will be able to give you a tiny bit of slack. Assuming that can happen, the easiest way to lower someone is with the "Load Strand Direct", or "LSD", as mentioned by Adam.

Here's a blog post that describes how to do it and has a link to a video showing the technique.
https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/need-to-lower-from-an-atc-guide-try-some-lsd

this is damn cool...

LSD or flipping the plate will allow you to lower, without ratcheting forever. You could also just do an Italian hitch.

A Gri Gri is not necessarily auto-locking when used on an anchor, so that is something to consider when using it to belay from above.

Adam Fleming wrote: LSD lower is my favorite when using a plate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vB7tMKLh-g 

Note that he is using a Reverso in the video. If you're using an ATC-Guide, the connection hole in the device lies at a right angle to the rope line. So it's important if you want things to run smoothly to put the new locker IN FRONT OF the device. If you are re-directing the brake strand, put the new locker behind the ATC.

David Dentry wrote: Why in the world would anyone use a Guide ATC when a GriGri is SO MUCH EASIER! Yes, it's heavier, but unless that's a big concern what other reason would someone use a Guide ATC over a GriGri?

Just a quick note here: lowering with the GriGri in "guide mode" might not be as trivial as just opening the lever. The AMGA recommends redirecting the brake strand above the GriGri to provide further brake strand friction. The Freino exists for this situation, but a normal (much cheaper) carabiner situated higher up on the anchor suffices.

I'm not 100% sure what failure mode this is attempting to address, but my guess is that there are a few ways where the GriGri lever can get caught and stuck open while lowering in guide mode, and the redirected brake strand gives you enough friction to control the descent with only the brake strand.

David Dentry wroteWhy in the world would anyone use a Guide ATC when a GriGri is SO MUCH EASIER! Yes, it's heavier, but unless that's a big concern what other reason would someone use a Guide ATC over a GriGri?

ATC Guide is nice for two concurrently following Climbers.  That is about the only time I use Guide mode. And, yes, transitioning to lowering someone on the rope a long ways is non-trivial.

A Gri Gri really only has three uses, while the ATC has many many more, making it a more functional tool, but that does come with a learning curve that needs time investment to learn important systems, like safely lowering an injured climber, etc.  Also Gri Gri's will not always hold inverted falls while soloing, which adds potential for an accident with over trusting the device while belaying the second. 

bkozak wrote: The DMM Pivot was created to address this issue.

https://youtu.be/twOt5HG7Nf4

+1

​Did you try this?​

John Godino wrote: You ask a very good question, and one that every climber who is using a plate style belay device needs to know how to do.
Most of the time, your second will be able to give you a tiny bit of slack. Assuming that can happen, the easiest way to lower someone is with the "Load Strand Direct", or "LSD", as mentioned by Adam.

Here's a blog post that describes how to do it and has a link to a video showing the technique.
https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/need-to-lower-from-an-atc-guide-try-some-lsd

The video is incomplete. 

• How does that system control the speed and brake if if the climber starts descending too quickly?

• How does the belayer safely switch back into climbing mode?

Nobody should use any system for lowing until they understand and rehearse every scenario.

Lowering in guide mode isn't difficult. Doing it safely is difficult. There are very subtle ways to make mistakes that can be disastrous.

When flipping the device open in guide mode, does anyone use a Munter hitch with a prussik to lower? Or is just a redirect with a prussik safe enough?

I know BD’s manual suggest using a munter but doesn’t say anything about a redirect and prussik. 

J B wrote: When flipping the device open in guide mode, does anyone use a Munter hitch with a prussik to lower? Or is just a redirect with a prussik safe enough?

I know BD’s manual suggest using a munter but doesn’t say anything about a redirect and prussik. 

Try it yourself, and see what you think. I suspect you'll quickly conclude that the Munter is superior.

Then again, better than that is not getting into a situation where you have to lower in guide mode.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Just a quick note here: lowering with the GriGri in "guide mode" might not be as trivial as just opening the lever. The AMGA recommends redirecting the brake strand above the GriGri to provide further brake strand friction. The Freino exists for this situation, but a normal (much cheaper) carabiner situated higher up on the anchor suffices.

I'm not 100% sure what failure mode this is attempting to address, but my guess is that there are a few ways where the GriGri lever can get caught and stuck open while lowering in guide mode, and the redirected brake strand gives you enough friction to control the descent with only the brake strand.

David, the redirect is 100% needed. An open grigri offers very little friction. The friction is normally provided by the rope exiting the device over the running surface. The re-direct ensues the rope exits the grigri over this surface, rather than into thin air.

Because a lower might be an emergency situation (second stung by bees, hit on head by rock....), it is very sensible to place this redirect carabiner ready to go on the shelf (or equivalent) when you start bringing the second up. Chances are you won't need it, but it needs to be in place everytime. Otherwise in a panic situation, one might be tempted to pull that handle without a redirect - which in a low friction situation might well be fatal.