Guide Service Compensation

Hi MP!
I'm heading on a trip with a friend who is also a guide. I want to compensate him because, while he's a friend, he's also acting as a guide for us. However, it's not officially through a guide service. How much should I compensate him?  I'd really appreciate some input, especially from you guides out there. Here's a quick survey, (one question) if you're willing: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/HTVF9WF

Thanks in advance!

It depends on what you’re doing and how long the trip is. 1/2 day single pitch sport? All day multi pitch? Alpine?

That's called "pirate guiding," if you pay him, which is illegal for him. There are consequences for him, if he is caught. For example, if there is an accident and the investigation reveals he was guiding without a permit.

That said, you can pay all his expenses without directly giving him cash, and it would be legal. If you want to know how much guides charge, look on the website of a guide service.

The primary line between guiding and not guiding is whether you are paying him directly. Ask your guide/friend about this.

Hi Adrienne,
It's two days sport cragin' and 3 days multi-pitch.
Thanks!

Please post the results if you don't mind.

sFrankPS wrote: Tha's called "pirate guiding," which is illegal for him. There are consequences for him, if he is caught. For example, if there is an accident and the investigation reveals he was guiding without a permit.

That said, you can pay all his expense without directly giving him cash, and it would be legal. If you want to know how much guides charge, look on the website of a guide service.

The primary line between guiding and not guiding is whether you are paying him directly. Ask your guide/friend about this.

Good to know. He's not asking for anything... I just feel like I should give him something.  Does that make any difference? Maybe paying all his expenses will be sufficient. In any case, I'd still like to know. Thanks for the response!

Eric Vogel wrote: Please post the results if you don't mind.

Sure!

“Illegal” depends on where he is guiding, guiding isn’t regulated at a state level most places.

And if he’s your friend and not charging you any money, there’s nothing wrong with giving him a gift after the trip to show him you appreciated it and no way for him to “get in trouble”. 

Ryan M Moore wrote: “Illegal” depends on where he is guiding, guiding isn’t regulated at a state level most places.

And if he’s your friend and not charging you any money, there’s nothing wrong with giving him a gift after the trip to show him you appreciated it and no way for him to “get in trouble”. 

That's not actually true.  It's still fully pirate guiding if you get paid after the fact.  Regarding how much he makes as a guide, it depends on how trained and experienced he is plus what the activity is. (edit to add: I just looked at your survey and realized I forgot to include ratio into the matrix.  4:1 would pay better than 1:1) It could be anywhere from 150-1000 dollars/day.  Out of curiosity, where will you be climbing?

Briggs Lazalde wrote: If I was taking some friends on a trip like that and I was the one with all the gear and knowledge I'd know pretty well going into it that I'm trying to keep these people stoked. I wouldn't expect anything. I usually pay for the beer afterward too. It shows their character if they offer anything(again nothing expected). I would be stoked if they covered gas, food and beer. If they bring herb that's cool too but I'd expect they know themselves and won't get scared to climb if they do so. If people offer cash I personally would turn it down but if you offer him whatever compensation I think that says a lot about you and that would keep me climbing with you knowing that you are looking after my wellbeing as well as yours. Call it a early bday gift that has nothing to do with compensation for "guiding" and I think it would be hard for them to prove otherwise.

True, and especially if the guide doesn't ask for any pay, upfront. A post-climb "thank you gift" would be hard to prove as pay.

FrankPS wrote:

True, and especially if the guide doesn't ask for any pay, upfront. A post-climb "gift" would be hard to prove as pay.

But, if other guides see what's going on and recognize it for what it is, (which is pretty easy to do) there's for sure social pressure/peer shaming that will come into play.  Particularly if the guide is certified and/or has taken AMGA courses.  Every time we sign up for a course we swear to uphold the AMGA code of conduct which, among other things, forbids us from pirating. (which this is regardless of how the compensation works)

Max Tepfer wrote:

But, if other guides see what's going on and recognize it for what it is, (which is pretty easy to do) there's for sure social pressure/peer shaming that will come into play.  Particularly if the guide is certified and/or has taken AMGA courses.  Every time we sign up for a course we swear to uphold the AMGA code of conduct which, among other things, forbids us from pirating. (which this is regardless of how the compensation works)

Yeah, but what if the two of them really haven't discussed pay and they really are friends, outside of guiding? How does that work? Curious.  Was my "pay his expenses" comment legit?

Take him out to a really nice dinner and pay for all his expenses, food, gas, booze. 

Sponsor your friend, He is the rope-gun in the group and deserves to be a Sponsored climber.

Keep it informal but Hook him up; cover all his basic costs; lodging, flights, gas & food, not alcohol.

Sometimes, it is best to be clear & up front about this.  That the head rope-gun stays ""straight-edged"",
 or sticks to very small amounts of "consumables",,, The only discernable difference among the group.

Depending on his Bussiness & Social skills,  He is the "Designated"  Camper & driver,
who organizes travel & puts his name on things.  That is what any & all direct compensation is for.
Not the rope-gun duties  ~ so that there is nothing other guides have any say in.
If there are more of you going be up-front, enjoy & split the costs between you.
After the trip Cover everything~ Replace his rope(s) & buy him fresh shoes. Replace his favorite shell/top with a new one.
You pay for & get anonymity.  Call yourselves by his last name as if you are a family," The Smith brothers climbing trip of 2019"
I was never a pirate, I was always the leader.

 

What's the difference between a climbing guide and a large pizza?  A large pizza can feed a family of four.  

What does a climbing guide and a condom have in common?  Safer with, more fun without.

Briggs Lazalde wrote: If I was taking some friends on a trip like that and I was the one with all the gear and knowledge I'd know pretty well going into it that I'm trying to keep these people stoked. I wouldn't expect anything. I usually pay for the beer afterward too. It shows their character if they offer anything(again nothing expected). I would be stoked if they covered gas, food and beer. If they bring herb that's cool too but I'd expect they know themselves and won't get scared to climb if they do so. If people offer cash I personally would turn it down but if you offer him whatever compensation I think that says a lot about you and that would keep me climbing with you knowing that you are looking after my wellbeing as well as yours. Call it a early bday gift that has nothing to do with compensation for "guiding" and I think it would be hard for them to prove otherwise.

Basically this is it. We're friends. He's totally stoked to be climbing with people who are as stoked as he is (if that's even possible.) He's the rope gun on trad climbs and has all the trad gear. We swap leads on bolted multi pitch routes. Perhaps "guide" is a bit too strong here, he's basically a mentor. We get a LOT of value climbing with him, friendship being the most important. He hasn't solicited anything and I'm sure expects nothing. I strongly feel he should somehow be compensated for what currently is a very lopsided climbing relationship. However, perhaps the thing to do is keep it a cordial friendship/mentoring situation, offer to pay his expenses and buy him some gear. The absolute LAST thing I would want to do is to inadvertently get him in trouble or somehow "excommunicated" from his climbing peers.

Really appreciate all the responses so far. I had no idea there was such a thing as "pirate guiding" etc.  I'm still interested in what people think regarding the survey.

Thanks again people!

If he’s your friend a gift would probably be more appreciated than cash. Being given cash for helping friends out always makes me feel like my friends value the friendship less rather than more, but gifts don’t. Money makes things less personal and more professionally which is not what I look for from friends. Buy him a rack of totems, a set of DMM offsets, the nicest most expensive triple rated rope, a goretex pro hardshell, a Valley Giant, Yeti cooler etc.  Basically some top of the line shit he might have always wanted but be able to justify buying for himself.

Once again pirate guiding is most often not illegal. It may be against AMGA rules but that’s not illegal, illegal implies city, state or federal law. On NPS land it’s illegal under unpermitted commercial activities but more places it’s not. Furthermore taking a friends family out for a trip isn’t going to ruin anyone’s reputation, and whether you hook him up or not won’t be known. Also whether you hook him up or not won’t be what would make other people think he was pirating, it would be that they saw him leading a party unofficially, but I highly doubt anyone is going to be paying that much attention, and no one is going to have any negative impression if it’s not something they see him doing with multiple groups.
If he’s not asking for anything, it’s not pirating...

This Knights of the AMGA oath swearing is kinda funny to me, do they also make you swear to guard the realms of man from gumbies, belay faithfully from a SERENE anchor and never sire a child you can feed on guiding wages until your watch is ended? 

FrankPS wrote:
Yeah, but what if the two of them really haven't discussed pay and they really are friends, outside of guiding? How does that work? Curious.  Was my "pay his expenses" comment legit?

It's pretty gray.  If they're honest expenses, then it's probably fine.  If they get padded with things beyond food, gas, and maybe a rope or something similar, then probably not.  As has been said, it varies depending on the land manager, but my understanding is that on most public lands, if there's any exchange of goods or services, then it's considered a commercial use and is regulated. This is also true at the state level in Oregon.

Ryan M Moore wrote:

Once again pirate guiding is most often not illegal. It may be against AMGA rules but that’s not illegal, illegal implies city, state or federal law. On NPS land it’s illegal under unpermitted commercial activities but more places it’s not. Furthermore taking a friends family out for a trip isn’t going to ruin anyone’s reputation, and whether you hook him up or not won’t be known. Also whether you hook him up or not won’t be what would make other people think he was pirating, it would be that they saw him leading a party unofficially, but I highly doubt anyone is going to be paying that much attention, and no one is going to have any negative impression if it’s not something they see him doing with multiple groups.
If he’s not asking for anything, it’s not pirating...

It's illegal to guide without on a permit on public land.  (which is most of the climbing in the western US)  The AMGA would prefer we don't, but legally the rubber hits the road with the land manager.  All the AMGA can do is kick us out of the organization. (which almost never happens despite many, many guides pirating)  While the USFS, BLM, NPS, State Park Rangers, etc can actually cite us with a very real fine and/or threaten to ban us from the lands in question.  

In terms of the optics, when I see someone I know is a guide working in a mentorship role I assume it's not pro bono and he's pirating.  Most guides pay quite a bit of attention to who they see at the crag and what they're doing.  I promise you they'll notice.  I've been called out while climbing Solar Slab by a random stranger who didn't even seem to work as a guide, but was friends with the JHMG manager at the time, because I was rope-gunning a friend from college up it.

I think Ryan's point is the most salient one: it feels kind of impersonal to get handed cash when you're just taking your friends out climbing for fun because you like climbing and like them.  A thoughtful gift is one thing, but itemized expenses, a wage, etc. all morph the relationship from a friend doing a friend a favor because of said friendship into a commercial exchange.

E MuuD wrote:

Basically this is it. We're friends. He's totally stoked to be climbing with people who are as stoked as he is (if that's even possible.) He's the rope gun on trad climbs and has all the trad gear. We swap leads on bolted multi pitch routes. Perhaps "guide" is a bit too strong here, he's basically a mentor. We get a LOT of value climbing with him, friendship being the most important. He hasn't solicited anything and I'm sure expects nothing. I strongly feel he should somehow be compensated for what currently is a very lopsided climbing relationship. However, perhaps the thing to do is keep it a cordial friendship/mentoring situation, offer to pay his expenses and buy him some gear. The absolute LAST thing I would want to do is to inadvertently get him in trouble or somehow "excommunicated" from his climbing peers.

Really appreciate all the responses so far. I had no idea there was such a thing as "pirate guiding" etc.  I'm still interested in what people think regarding the survey.

Thanks again people!

If I were in this guy’s shoes, I wouldn’t expect anything. 

But last time I took friends on a weekend of climbing for their first time climbing outside (they had no gear and no experience, I set up climbs for them to TR, belayed them, and taught them couple things, like how to clean a sport route) they insisted on paying for gas, and covered the dinner on both nights. 
It was much appreciated, but seriously, going in I was planning on splitting the gas, and certainly wasn’t expecting them to pay for my good.