Manufactured routes at Ten Sleep being called out

Trying to create a global consensus is futile. But in this case at Ten Sleep, since the local representative climbing coalition has asked the chipper(s) to stop then that should be the end of the discussion, and no further routes to be chipped. There are a ton of chipped limestone routes around Vegas - it seems like an accepted practice there. I personally prefer climbing on natural routes but when I'm back in the area, will I climb at those crags again - sure, when it's raining at the RR.

People repeatedly bring up the historical nature of chipped routes in Europe. Sure these things were a common practice (but not the standard, since only a very small percentage of routes developed were chipped, usually very hard by the level of the time.) but it is no longer acceptable. I've been to most of the historical crags in Western Europe. Try chip a route in Buoux or Gorge du Tarn today and you will be crucified by the climbing community and lose any sponsorship or access support you may have had. That's just how things are now. No need to wage a holy war on it.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Drilling Bolts for climbing goes back to 1875 on the FA of Half Dome etc which is why reasonable and limited use of them (as defined and defended by climbers) has been "grandfathered" into use in many wilderness areas as something that predated wilderness designation.

Yes, altering of holds is very old too but has never been a standard and accepted practice.

The wholesale manufacturing of rock climbing holds for free climbing up blank wall (rather than bolt ladders or hook placements) has never been "standard and accepted".

So? Just because it's tradition doesn't make it "right" or "wrong".

Its not about simple visual blight, its about destruction/permanent altering of the resource that we alone are privileged to do. And we must limit how much we do (back to degree issue) to honor that privilege. The number of "holes" for any rock climb, free or aid, has always been limited by climbers policing themselves (albeit imperfectly).

Perma-draws is a local issue (visual blight) that is usually tolerated or not by a local community. Locally, they are tolerated here in places out of sight to any but climbers and often associated with rock previously subjected to blasting (road or damn or quarry) or other more abusive use. Fixed hardware is not universally accepted in more pristine areas.

Without drilling holes sport climbing wouldn't even exist. My first comment in this thread, sport climbing IS gym climbing isn't a joke. By the nature of sport climbing we are forced to alter the rock (bolts), so how can anyone say that making a hold where none exists is an unreasonable extension of that concept?

Julian H wrote:

Why not chop the bolts and fill the drilled pockets. He will eventually get the point and stop. We are talking about Wyoming, just kick his ass. 

So violence over holes on a bolted route is the answer eh?  Nihilist ethics FTW

Come to the Dark Side you have

Tradiban wrote: So? Just because it's tradition doesn't make it "right" or "wrong".

Without drilling holes sport climbing wouldn't even exist. My first comment in this thread, sport climbing IS gym climbing isn't a joke. By the nature of sport climbing we are forced to alter the rock (bolts), so how can anyone say that making a hold where none exists is an unreasonable extension of that concept?

Basically the last 150 years of Climbing has made it clear that there should be no extension of that concept. See "The Compressor Route" on Cerro Torre or these routes in Ten Sleep (per report) as "extensions" that are widely condemned.

Should the "Jardine Traverse" on The Nose be chopped?

No, because it is far less impact than the countless huge pin scars on the route that are essential to making it a free route. This is not remotely an endorsement of new chipping. 

Its a question of degree for all of our impacts. Given that there is still vast quantities of stone with no routes on it wholesale manufacturing of holds on blank expanses of rock cannot be justified.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Basically the last 150 years of Climbing has made it clear that there should be no extension of that concept. See "The Compressor Route" on Cerro Torre or these routes in Ten Sleep (per report) as "extensions" that are widely condemned.

Should the "Jardine Traverse" on The Nose be chopped?

I'm not offended by the Compressor, besides that it's lame.

No, because it is far less impact than the countless huge pin scars on the route that are essential to making it a free route. This is not remotely an endorsement of new chipping. 

Sure sounds like an endorsement of new chipping.

Its a question of degree for all of our impacts. Given that there is still vast quantities of stone with no routes on it wholesale manufacturing of holds on blank expanses of rock cannot be justified.

Sounds like the route enhancement in TS pales in comparison to all the bolts already installed. What's it to ya if a few small impossible sections are made possible? That's what the bolts are doing, making non-climbs climbable.

Tradiban wrote:

Sounds like the route enhancement in TS pales in comparison to all the bolts already installed. What's it to ya if a few small impossible sections are made possible? That's what the bolts are doing, making non-climbs climbable.

On a per route basis not even close. Basically you are saying if you drill for bolts its ok to drill for hand holds but in practice its 5 times or more holes per route.  A question of degree as the bolt holes themselves are the least of it.

It sounds like you have no clue how much cleaning of new routes takes place on limestone. Typically vastly more loose stone or very sharp razors are cleaned off natural holds than bolts placed but if you start drilling holds its exponentially worse yet.

And also have trouble recognizing the development of natural lines vs blank faces ie are simply one of those whose opinion is not based on experience or knowledge developing routes on Limestone. The manufacturing in question is not just a tiny fraction of the route, but wholly manufactured. Cleaning razors and drilling bolts are a tiny fraction of a natural line of holds.

And believe me, Nick, I don't post for you. I post to educate others that might inadvertently share your intentionally obtuse views intended just to stir the pot.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

On a per route basis not even close. Basically you are saying if you drill for bolts its ok to drill for hand holds but in practice its 5 times or more holes per route.  A question of degree as the bolt holes themselves are the least of it.

It sounds like you have no clue how much cleaning of new routes takes place on limestone. Typically vastly more loose stone or very sharp razors are cleaned off natural holds than bolts placed but if you start drilling holds its exponentially worse yet.

And also have trouble recognizing the development of natural lines vs blank faces ie are simply one of those whose opinion is not based on experience or knowledge developing routes on Limestone.

And believe me, Nick, I don't post for you. I post to educate others that might inadvertently share your intentionally obtuse views.

So let me get this straight, you can manufacture a trail to the base, you can manufacture a belay zone,  you can pry off "loose" flakes, you can file down "sharp" holds, you can generally "clean" the route (whatever that means) but making one hold to make a route doable is over your line? 

Must be nice to draw your aribritary lines wherever you like! The logic just doesn't flow. Sport climbing crossed over the line long ago and stopping just short of the logical finish doesn't save any of you of the culpability.

Sport climbing is sin.

Tradiban wrote:

So let me get this straight, you can manufacture a trail to the base, you can manufacture a belay zone,  you can pry off "loose" flakes, you can file down "sharp" holds, you can generally "clean" the route (whatever that means) but making one hold to make a route doable is over your line? 

Must be nice to draw your aribritary lines wherever you like! The logic just doesn't flow. Sport climbing crossed over the line long ago and stopping just short of the logical finish doesn't save any of you of the culpability.

Sport climbing is sin.

I don't condone trail building, only when it is done to mitigate active erosion issues that manifest over decades (ie trail to popular routes in Yosemite done with NPS approval).

I don't condone manufacturing belay zones.

I do condone removal of hazardous loose rock. Everyone trundles when its safe to keep others in the future safe.

There is zero pocket climbing without removal of small razors on the lip and in the back/sides on the Dolomite I have cleaned and any route I have ever climbed on Dolomite. If you had yourself, you would know.

I don't condone the wholesale manufacturing of rock climbs on blank stone as I consider that an abuse of privilege and a slippery slope.

Abuse of the privilege to make small alterations is transforming into wholesale creation of holds on blankness with no "minimalism" standard is the problem what we are talking about not normal minimal impacts that every rock climb experiences to one degree or another, trad or sport.

"Sport Climbing is Sin" lol you don't believe this yourself. Do you even FA braheem?

Tradiban wrote:

So let me get this straight, you can manufacture a trail to the base, you can manufacture a belay zone,  you can pry off "loose" flakes, you can file down "sharp" holds, you can generally "clean" the route (whatever that means) but making one hold to make a route doable is over your line? 

Must be nice to draw your aribritary lines wherever you like! The logic just doesn't flow. Sport climbing crossed over the line long ago and stopping just short of the logical finish doesn't save any of you of the culpability.

Sport climbing is sin.

right, and since the FA brought the climb down to his/her level by drilling pockets, I should be able to bring it down to my level by making the pockets juggier. Because anything less is stopping just short of the logical finish. Do y'all mind if I drill all those manufactured routes in TS down to 5.8? 

Oh FFS you two. Get a room already.

Can you drill an extra few bolts and call it 5.xx a0?

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

I don't condone trail building, only when it is done to mitigate active erosion issues that manifest over decades (ie trail to popular routes in Yosemite done with NPS approval).

I don't condone manufacturing belay zones.

I do condone removal of hazardous loose rock. Everyone trundles when its safe to keep others in the future safe.

There is zero pocket climbing without removal of small razors on the lip and in the back/sides on the Dolomite I have cleaned and any route I have ever climbed on Dolomite. If you had yourself, you would know.

I don't condone the wholesale manufacturing of rock climbs on blank stone as I consider that an abuse of privilege and a slippery slope.

Abuse of the privilege to make small alterations is transforming into wholesale creation of holds on blankness with no "minimalism" standard is the problem what we are talking about not normal minimal impacts that every rock climb experiences to one degree or another, trad or sport.

"Sport Climbing is Sin" lol you don't believe this yourself. Do you even FA braheem?

You are just making personal judgement calls, as are the gentleman making holds. You have no rational philosophy to guide your beliefs, you just do what's convenient to justify for yourself. Don't like manufacturing holds? Don't do it and don't climb on it.

Sport climbing is now reaping what was sowed.

You are absolutely right in nearly every regard.

Any user of wilderness applies judgment to their consumption of the resource every time we drive to the spot on roads blasted through mountainsides shitting pollution into the air of a warming planet and then impact the site of our camp or cause impacts doing other activities etc.

To exist in the mountains is to have an impact there, its a fragile place to visit. Some use far better judgment than others about their impact and manufacturing of routes IS a direct result of the excesses in places like Wild Iris where developers got too creative at times (and conversely I have been criticized for not filing enough or using the pry bar/glue enough leaving routes sharper than Piana or Lightener would like). Bad precedents are rife and this tempest in a teapot is the inevitable result. As is the appropriate push back to return to more appropriate use of the resource.

Its called using better judgment and urging others to use better judgment too, you nailed it.

I agree with the sentiments expressed in the open letter and am very much against chipping and manufacturing routes.
However, it must be pointed out that these developers, including Aaron Huey, have been responsible for some hold chipping themselves. Climb "The Joy of Heresy" at the Ark and tell me how natural the 1" wide, perfect mono pocket is. The guys writing this letter have set a double standard. I appreciate the noble intentions, but scorn the hypocrisy. There are certainly plenty of routes in Ten Sleep without the manufactured holds.

Also, if you want the route manufacturing to stop, then stop financially supporting the chippers. By staying at the Ten Sleep Rock Ranch, you are giving Louie money to buy bolts and manufacture more "5 star" moderates.

All I want to know is..............is it acceptable to bring my dog to Ten Sleep?

michalm wrote: I agree with the sentiments expressed in the open letter and am very much against chipping and manufacturing routes.
However, it must be pointed out that these developers, including Aaron Huey, have been responsible for some hold chipping themselves. Climb "The Joy of Heresy" at the Ark and tell me how natural the 1" wide, perfect mono pocket is. The guys writing this letter have set a double standard. I appreciate the noble intentions, but scorn the hypocrisy. There are certainly plenty of routes in Ten Sleep without the manufactured holds.

Also, if you want the route manufacturing to stop, then stop financially supporting the chippers. By staying at the Ten Sleep Rock Ranch, you are giving Louie money to buy bolts and manufacture more "5 star" moderates.

As Louie Anderson stated (on the comment section of the Facebook page with the open letter), the manufacturing was done 1 to 3 years ago & he has change his ways. He says his manufacturing is past tense.  So, give him a chance.  It seems that people on this thread don't want to believe him. 

As for the larger debate, it will always be there. I think it is pointless to hold every crag, rock type or route to the same standards.  It is easy to say the guys writing this letter have a double standard, but I don't agree.  Clearly, there is a big difference between drilling a mono in a blank section to link natural holds & manufacturing most of the entire route or crag.  Clearly, there are exceptions to very rule in the rock climbing.  For example, I wouldn't want to see bolts next to most splitter cracks like Equinox or Crack A Go Go, but they sure a nice of the first pitch of Cookie Monster (that ascends a shallow flared crack).  When I visited Buoux, France in 1990, I saw no alternative holds to the odd pocket drilled in blank sections & no reason to criticize the routes there.  The most heavily manufactured route I ever climbed was Otto's Route on Independence Pinnacle, but no condemns that route that was established in 1911.  In fact Otto was a great environmental steward of the National Monument. His early ascent done before rock climbing techniques had even been developed was a bold adventure.  So when we bicker about the odd drilled pocket on limestone, we need to ask ourselves, does the chipping debate exaggerate the reality & its damage?

Blah, blah blah.

Tradiban wrote
Sport climbing is sin.

Must explain why it feels so good then.

Dan Cooksey wrote: All I want to know is..............is it acceptable to bring my dog to Ten Sleep?

Make sure you bring your boombox and baby as well

Rob warden The space lizard wrote:

Make sure you bring your boombox and baby as well

Ok thanks.  I will fly them to the crag on my drone.