How long should I wait after a drizzle to climb Red Rock?

I met with the head UNLV Geologist today and he informed me that his recent research suggests that Aztec sandstone is potentially even more skittish than we currently believe.  The latest analysis shows the rock becomes measurably weaker when someone says the word rain!  It apparently is an adaptive unconscious response at the molecular level.  More to come. For now, I suggest no one climb at RR until 3 to 5 days after the last time the word rain was said.

John Hegyes wrote:

So the original post, with the suggestion of not
climbing 3-5 days BEFORE a rain is forecast, was earnest.
 
The trend here in Red Rock is to create more and more strict suggestions regarding wet rock. My objection is that Sandy Crimp responded authoritatively, laying out the “consensus”, which I interpret as a standard agreed upon by the community. This is by no means a settled rule. There is no consensus about not climbing with 70% humidity. I’ve never even heard that discussed before so how can an agreement have been made and a consensus reached?
 
The fact that most responses on here so far suggest that Sandy Crimp is joking shows that there is NO CONSENSUS. Creating rules out of thin air and passing them off as established fact is dishonest.
 
I’m aware of what some local geologists have been saying recently about wet rock in Red Rock. The fact is that broken rock has happened in the past and will happen now and forever more. Routes are a snapshot in time, they do eventually change. It’s inescapable. Steps can be taken to mitigate this but the rules established by Sandy Crimp are so severe that I think the cure is worse than the problem.

So you're saying "it's OK to climb wet sandstone".....

What about golf shoes? Is there a consensus there?

That's over 10 days out. Forecasts change.

Hmmmm, I don’t think 70% humidity is something that occurs frequently in the usually single digit humidity of southern  Nevada. Gotta be sarcasm. 

yesterday the area around Kraft parking lot which gets all day sun was still visibly wet (4 days since last rain?) and it looks like rain may be falling again now. I wish I lived in a real desert   

I expected the extremity of my posts to be clear sarcasm.  I mean humidity?  The forecast weakening the rock?  Saying the word rain weakening the rock?  Come on!  That’s not even trolling.  It is clearly being absurd.

Unfortunately, the internet fueled frenzy about wet sandstone has caused such extreme opinions and hollier than though stances that, suddenly such absurdity seems like it may be serious, or even seen as  reasonable!!

We need to be more reasonable about this!  If we took the stance to never climb on the day of rain, we would get 99% compliance.  If we said never the day after rain, we would still likely get a super high rate of compliance.  At never two days after, we probably start to stretch some travellers patience, but I expect we would still get 90%+ compliance.  

As we go further and further we start to look and sound absurd and the compliance rate will fall off precipitously.  Worse still, once our demands sound absurd, they make our whole case look absurd and compliance will fall even at the more reasonable periods.  By saying 5 days, we make it more likely someone will “write off” our absurd demands and be more likely to climb even the day after.  
Today, (3 days after rain) there are threads on Facebook with videos of confrontations and the call for identifying the perps and for the SNCC to call them out.  It’s getting absurd!  
Today was probably a marginal/edge case day where it was probably better left unclimbed, but the holier than though experts are confronting people and internet shaming.  People I have otherwise known to be reasonable are on Facebook wishing the climbers harm and begging the SNCC to shame them.  While that may be a method, it is an extreme one and particularly so on an iffy day.  Strikingly, no one speaks up about it being over the top or even considering if it was maybe an OK day to climb at some crags.  Why, because it’s a mob mentality!

Look above where John Hegyes makes totally reasonable comments; what happens, an attack versus a conversation about the fact that he is trying to identity a reasonable middle ground.

-Thank you,
Moist Sandy Crimp

PS: RAIN!  Boom, now you can’t climb in RedRock for the next five days!

The rules shouldn't be based on what people will follow but what is correct. If the sandstone isn't dry, don't climb is a very simple rule.

Jer, all the above joking aside, you have the best suggestion. But it just brings us back to square one because the rock is often truly dry just a few hours after it rains. Especially if the sun is out.

Is the rock wet below the surface? I don't know. So check the dirt on the ground they say. One guy was saying you have to dig down in the dirt to check for moisture. How far?? Should I throw a shovel in my pack?

People are going crazy though. This woman on the Facebook group, she says she goes around lecturing people about climbing - 4 days after the rain. "The ground is wet! The ground is wet!"

The ground was dry today.  Not everywhere, but in most places.  100% the really sunny walls that are not aggressively steep where dry.  

No measurable rainfall in 4 days. Meanwhile, wet rock vigilantes are out at red rock screaming at and confronting people and then being outraged that one of those people yelled back.  Ridiculous!  Honestly, that approach is not productive, but its particularly unforgivable on a day where reasonable and conservative people agree it was slightly iffy but not a wet rock day.
I went out in the afternoon and mostly chose not to climb for other reasons (wind!!!).   There were people climbing at many of the sunny south facing walls. Probably at least 70 climbers.  It was not a clearly inappropriate day.
What was inappropriate was a family confronting people on the trail and yelling up at people on the cliffs.  

Then they go on to Facebook and cry about one bold soul that yelled back, and how it upset their children.  A word of advice; don’t aggressively confront random people in front of your kids and they are far less likely to see such situations.

This is what the “maybe just maybe there is a 10% chance the rock could be a tad bit wet rock vigilantes” have devolved too.  Wishing death on those who climb at RedRock 4 days after it last rained.

Lunatics.  

Sandy Crimp wrote: I expected the extremity of my posts to be clear sarcasm.  I mean humidity?  The forecast weakening the rock?  Saying the word rain weakening the rock?  Come on!  That’s not even trolling.  It is clearly being absurd.

Unfortunately, the internet fueled frenzy about wet sandstone has caused such extreme opinions and hollier than though stances that, suddenly such absurdity seems like it may be serious, or even seen as  reasonable!!

We need to be more reasonable about this!  If we took the stance to never climb on the day of rain, we would get 99% compliance.  If we said never the day after rain, we would still likely get a super high rate of compliance.  At never two days after, we probably start to stretch some travellers patience, but I expect we would still get 90%+ compliance.  

As we go further and further we start to look and sound absurd and the compliance rate will fall off precipitously.  Worse still, once our demands sound absurd, they make our whole case look absurd and compliance will fall even at the more reasonable periods.  By saying 5 days, we make it more likely someone will “write off” our absurd demands and be more likely to climb even the day after.  

Today, (3 days after rain) there are threads on Facebook with videos of confrontations and the call for identifying the perps and for the SNCC to call them out.  It’s getting absurd!  
Today was probably a marginal/edge case day where it was probably better left unclimbed, but the holier than though experts are confronting people and internet shaming.  People I have otherwise known to be reasonable are on Facebook wishing the climbers harm and begging the SNCC to shame them.  While that may be a method, it is an extreme one and particularly so on an iffy day.  Strikingly, no one speaks up about it being over the top or even considering if it was maybe an OK day to climb at some crags.  Why, because it’s a mob mentality!

Look above where John Hegyes makes totally reasonable comments; what happens, an attack versus a conversation about the fact that he is trying to identity a reasonable middle ground.

-Thank you,
Moist Sandy Crimp

PS: RAIN!  Boom, now you can’t climb in RedRock for the next five days!

The outrage at that video clip was overwhelmingly just because those guys were assholes. 

Nicholas Gillman wrote:

The outrage at that video clip was overwhelmingly just because those guys were assholes. 

Hi Nick!  Hope you are well.  

Were they assholes?  Are you sure?  How? OR were they, perhaps, out for a nice relaxing day together and where unexpectedly and aggressively confronted by a zeolot and then they responded in kind?  Consider that option.  

Nicholas Gillman wrote:

The outrage at that video clip was overwhelmingly just because those guys were assholes. 

The video shows absolutely no such thing. The only thing visible in the 3 SECOND clip is two people walking away on a SUNNY day, and you hear a baby crying.

This is a really sorry state of affairs. Close to an all-time low for Red Rock.

What is the solution to this whole thing? It seems like people are either part of the lynch mob ready to hang up anybody climbing 48, 72, 96 hours after a rain or seemingly in favor of climbing whenever.  Neither of which is correct.

When all those of us who don't give a shit either way and just want to help conserve the resource we love have is anecdotal "evidence", correlation without causation (ie: I heard from a chatty cathy who's cousin's sister saw that the Pearl broke the day after two people climbed it after a rain), and other assorted broscience, what do we really have?

Chances are from a basic geology standpoint that face climbing wet sandstone that has been soaked for days the day after a rain is a pretty bad idea. The problem is that people take these notions and run them to the extremes of the earth.  I have recently seen people in prominent positions in the community due to the companies that sponsor them, such that that lends them any credence, acting as proponents of not climbing wet rock.  The wet rock in question?  Granite.  Come the fuck on.

There is a point where we need to understand and differentiate hearsay and broscience from reality.  Where that leads us in anybody's guess.

John Hegyes wrote:

The video shows absolutely no such thing. The only thing visible in the 3 SECOND clip is two people walking away on a SUNNY day, and you hear a baby crying.

So you can infer what you want from the video but I can’t ?

Screaming “That’s why were climbing in the sun you idiot!” (Which you can hear in the video) and being prefaced with the reply of “Were from ...fuck you!” When asked where they are from... I think qualifys them to be assholes. If you don’t then fine... your entitled to your opinion. 
I’m positive they didn’t sprint up the steepest part of the 1st pullout approach ... with their 2 & 3 year old in tow screaming and yelling at these guys about climbing on wet sandstone while trying to whip out their cell phone so they could make sure they bust them .  

Sandy Crimp wrote:

Hi Nick!  Hope you are well.  

Were they assholes?  Are you sure?  How? OR were they, perhaps, out for a nice relaxing day together and where unexpectedly and aggressively confronted by a zeolot and then they responded in kind?  Consider that option.  

I’m pretty sure that’s not what happened , just from knowing the family involved .... unless that is what happend and you know cause you’re one of those guys then please feel free to set the record straight... but even as bad a video quality as it is we can see it’s clealry not you   

It’s telling that the Vigilante has taken down her FB post.

Are we allowed to climb today?  It’s been 5 days!
But, then again I did say rain yesterday.

Perhaps we as a community are going about the wet rock issue in the wrong manner. While climbing on wet rock is unethical it’s not illegal; what is illegal is crossing private property for crag access, overnight camping at trail heads, etc. These things mentioned are happening on a daily basis with very little recourse. An example would be look to how out of control skid row got before the police broke it up.
Red Rock as an area is still seen as the Wild West, which it sadly is not. If a visiting or local climber doesn’t perceive the local community values not just the rock but the area surrounding the rocks they will have less intrinsic value to obey the ethics.  We as a community have become reactionary not proactive, simply read the comments in social media threads. Donating to the access fund and the SNCC are steps in the right direction but going and getting your hands dirty is key.
If someone can use a trail clearly marked as closed without anyone correcting the behavior it will continue and possibly allow others to justify the same action. An example would be how the trail to Kraft bouldering and the routes changed last year. Signs marking the new trail are in place along with private property signs(which get  moved often, also in theory illegal) and rock walls(that get knocked over constantly) trying to block the old trail. These actions taken by local and non locals will surely cause problems faster than breaking hold. Why has this not become a lynch mob issue?

When was the last time you picked up trash or took a moment to fix some trail?

While breaking holds is an issue I would argue there are much larger issues we as a community should be concerned about.