Victory whip!!

Lena chita wrote:

What's lame? Falling?

O.K., sure, if the guy makes loud whooping noises and yells "victory whip" at the top of his lungs before pitching off, that would be obnoxious. But a guy taking a fall from the anchors, instead of clipping, because he wants to have some falling practice?

How does it affect you? Why do you care? Is it only for the falls at the anchors, that you object to, and it's O.K. if he falls at the bolt below last, just not at the last? Or do you object only if someone calls their deliberate fall a "victory whip"? Maybe he should throw a wobbler and announce loudly to everyone that he fell by accident, NOT on purpose, in order to satisfy you?

Lol.  Yes, purposefully taking falls from the anchors that rattle your insides, make you nauseous and give you a day-long headache is lame. 

I take victory whips to turn a fall while clipping the chains into the victory of claiming a send. 

Josh Lipko wrote:

Lol.  Yes, purposefully taking falls from the anchors that rattle your insides, make you nauseous and give you a day-long headache is lame. 

I'd even go further and posit that if you fall enough times - especially intentionally - even if you have been brain washed into believing it will make you a "warrior" and that's a necessary behavior before you can climb hard - that sooner or later you will get hurt.  Of course you can say the same about climbing in general.  Probably life in general.  So whatever.  You won't be impressing me.

In all seriousness, head, brain, and nerve type injuries are not something you ever want to just tough out.  You should really get checked out as early care can definitely be a difference maker if it's something serious.

The OP probably just needs a cup of coffee. Calm down.

Eric Engberg wrote:

I'd even go further and posit that if you fall enough times - especially intentionally - even if you have been brain washed into believing it will make you a "warrior" and that's a necessary behavior before you can climb hard - that sooner or later you will get hurt.  Of course you can say the same about climbing in general.  Probably life in general.  So whatever.  You won't be impressing me.

Well first off no one is trying to impress anyone. Second I find it hard to understand that being afraid to fall doesn’t effect your climbing. All I’m saying here is if your scared to fall your much less likely to even step up to grab that mega jug because you’re scared to fall where if you’re not so tense/ scared of falling even if you do fall that’s not what’s at the forefront of your mind,you would instead be more concerned with hitting that next hold and therefore more likely to actually finish the climb

Cris Garcia wrote:

Well first off no one is trying to impress anyone. Second I find it hard to understand that being afraid to fall doesn’t effect your climbing. All I’m saying here is if your scared to fall your much less likely to even step up to grab that mega jug because you’re scared to fall where if you’re not so tense/ scared of falling even if you do fall that’s not what’s at the forefront of your mind,you would instead be more concerned with hitting that next hold and therefore more likely to actually finish the climb

That's the whole premise of the warrior's way mentality that people buy into.  It's an oversimplification but will probably work well for you for a long time.  Until it doesn't.

Victory whips are only acceptable if you bellow “WENIS!!!” in mid-air

Eric Engberg wrote:

That's the whole premise of the warrior's way mentality that people buy into.  It's an oversimplification but will probably work well for you for a long time.  Until it doesn't.

A planned clean fall will never help you overcome a fear of falling when pumped or you are sketched and run out or at your max level. it only gets you comfortable with clean planned falls. not falls that actually occur from climbing hard. all routes cant just be fell on like the gym 7 bolts up you find a ledge you better be aware after that its like the first bolt for a bit.  For the record, I’m agreeing with Eric on this. 

Mike Knight wrote:

A planned clean fall will never help you overcome a fear of falling when pumped or you are sketched and run out or at your max level. it only gets you comfortable with clean planned falls. not falls that actually occur from climbing hard. all routes cant just be fell on like the gym 7 bolts up you find a ledge you better be aware after that its like the first bolt for a bit.  For the record, I’m agreeing with Eric on this. 

No offense, but I think some of that is bullshit. Some people have a fear of even clean well protected falls. And maybe its okay to have a bit of fear in these situations, but too much will keep you from trying hard even in a low consequence situation. Obviously there is a difference between falling onto a bolt on overhanging terrain, and falling onto a micronut above a ledge. Its up to the rational mind to perceive and adjust for the differences between these two scenarios, but if you're gripped out of your mind then emotion isn't giving the rational brain any space to work. Your claim that clean planned falls only prepare you for clean planned falls is like telling a kayaker not to learn to roll, cuz rolling in a pool or flatwater doesn't prepare you for your first combat roll. Maybe not perfectly, but it certainly helps, and you'll learn the technique and calm mindset that is necessary a lot faster than by just trying to roll when you are forced to.

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

No offense, but I think some of that is bullshit. Some people have a fear of even clean well protected falls. And maybe its okay to have a bit of fear in these situations, but too much will keep you from trying hard even in a low consequence situation. Obviously there is a difference between falling onto a bolt on overhanging terrain, and falling onto a micronut above a ledge. Its up to the rational mind to perceive and adjust for the differences between these two scenarios, but if you're gripped out of your mind then emotion isn't giving the rational brain any space to work. Your claim that clean planned falls only prepare you for clean planned falls is like telling a kayaker not to learn to roll, cuz rolling in a pool or flatwater doesn't prepare you for your first combat roll. Maybe not perfectly, but it certainly helps, and you'll learn the technique and calm mindset that is necessary a lot faster than by just trying to roll when you are forced to.

Failing for head game and learning a technique is what I would say is two different things. I am not a kayaker but knowing how to roll and being scared to roll are two different things I would guess. if he is falling for the sake of knowing how to safely fall I get your analogy but to me it seems its more for head game and courage than actual technique. I will concede that it is better than nothing though. I just don’t see a huge benefit in practicing planned falls.

I honestly would never feel any fear about falling when I told my belayer "hey i'm going to take a fall at the top". I think you hit a certain point in climbing at least for me without taking practice falls that you just say i'm going for it. I was a huge scaredy cat when it came to falling but until I just went for it and fell without any prior knowledge that I was going to did I get over the constant fear of falling. 

this is all just an my personal experience but the knowing that a fall was coming never helped me when I had the feeling that I could fall unexpectedly during a move.

Fair enough, Mike. But I think many people have a slightly different experience. I haven't "practiced" falling for technique or headgame, but I think it would probably help me at least a bit. I think you're right in that sport climbing above my onsight level where I am taking some unplanned falls is better.

Fear of falling, no matter the situation, holds a lot of people back. I'll say that practicing clean falls has helped me improve. I've been moving up to 5.10 outside and I don't think I'd be able to do it if I hadn't practiced lots of falls inside.

Mike Knight wrote:

I honestly would never feel any fear about falling when I told my belayer "hey i'm going to take a fall at the top". I think you hit a certain point in climbing at least for me without taking practice falls that you just say i'm going for it. I was a huge scaredy cat when it came to falling but until I just went for it and fell without any prior knowledge that I was going to did I get over the constant fear of falling. 

this is all just an my personal experience but the knowing that a fall was coming never helped me when I had the feeling that I could fall unexpectedly during a move.

That’s your experience, and good for you. Though “never” is a very strong word. 

I remember when falling wasn’t a big deal for me. I’d say for the first 5-6-8 years of climbing I felt the way you do. 

I am not sure exactly when it changed. Maybe it was the time my friend died in a regular sport climbing fall, due to belayers error. Maybe it was that time when I broke a ‘biner is a simple routine sport climbing fall. Maybe it was the time when my husband broke his ankle, because he got a hard catch from a random dude. Maybe it was that time when I limped around with a giant bruise on my hip, because a very experienced belayer was so used to always being the lighter one that she didn’t think to jump when belaying me, even though she outweighed me. Maybe it was after knee surgery, when every fall has a potential to be bad. Maybe it’s one too many times that I helped someone at the crag who got injured in what should have been a routine fall. 

Maybe it’s all of those things combined. But whatever it is, falls are no longer casual for me. I need a regular dose of planned falls to keep that fear under control. I climb better if I take a few planned falls at the gym every week. Or take a planned fall on a project in a warmup run. Even though planned fall is not the same as a real fall, taking a few of those is good for my mental game. 

Mike Knight wrote:  knowing that a fall was coming never helped me when I had the feeling that I could fall unexpectedly during a move.

hmmm.

Lena chita wrote:

That’s your experience, and good for you. Though “never” is a very strong word. 

I remember when falling wasn’t a big deal for me. I’d say for the first 5-6-8 years of climbing I felt the way you do. 

I am not sure exactly when it changed. Maybe it was the time my friend died in a regular sport climbing fall, due to belayers error. Maybe it was that time when I broke a ‘biner is a simple routine sport climbing fall. Maybe it was the time when my husband broke his ankle, because he got a hard catch from a random dude. Maybe it was that time when I limped around with a giant bruise on my hip, because a very experienced belayer was so used to always being the lighter one that she didn’t think to jump when belaying me, even though she outweighed me. Maybe it was after knee surgery, when every fall has a potential to be bad. Maybe it’s one too many times that I helped someone at the crag who got injured in what should have been a routine fall. 

Maybe it’s all of those things combined. But whatever it is, falls are no longer casual for me. I need a regular dose of planned falls to keep that fear under control. I climb better if I take a few planned falls at the gym every week. Or take a planned fall on a project in a warmup run. Even though planned fall is not the same as a real fall, taking a few of those is good for my mental game. 

Seems like an odd conclusion.

Mike Knight wrote:

I am not a kayaker but knowing how to roll and being scared to roll are two different things I would guess. 

Since I was/am a kayaker with a decent roll I am going to say that the analogy is not quite there. 

Kayakers are never afraid to roll, they are never sure that the roll will succeed, despite the bomb proof roll mystique.
Consequences and reasons for failed rolls are numerous. Based on my personal experiences - dislocated shoulder fucks up the roll really badly, and rolls are quite difficult in keeper holes, or in 6ft breakers. Consequences vary quite a bit - sometimes a wet exit is no biggie, sometimes it is the worst thing to do - failing to roll up between sets near rocks is usually worse than a bad catch in rock climbing.

And, it is possible to practice rolls on flat water ad nauseam, both figuratively and literally. Even though some diehards will claim that skills don't transfer, once you learn how to do cleans, rolling a kayak becomes quite reliable.

Greg D wrote:

hmmm.

Definitely didn’t make sense. Was a quick reply between appointments. I was meaning to say practicing planned falls never helped me for the feeling that this next move I could possibly fall.

As for Lena (sorry about your experiences) I should have clarified in my second post that a planned GYM fall to me (which I believe I stated was my experience) never felt like it helped me overcome my fear of a possibly unplanned fall (sketchy foot, not as good of hold as thought) 
Going to the top of a climb knowing I’m going to fall and my belayer knows I am going to fall to ME doesn’t translate well to helping with a fall going for a hold or a foot slipping off a hold. Those things stayed in my head even after taking planned falls. So I found that after a period of time I just had to go for it and when I did and fell those had a greater impact on lessening my fear of falling.  

I went to the doctor and said it hurts my head when I do victory whips

he said don't do victory whips any more

he also gave me a referral for vasectomy but wouldn't tell me why, he said it's for definitive care to prevent future headaches

Eric Engberg wrote:

Seems like an odd conclusion.

What is an odd conclusion? 

Quick summary:
I didn’t used to be afraid of falling. Never used to do practice falls. Just fell when I couldn’t make a move. 
In fact, the first time I took a fall on purpose was about 6-7 years ago, the first time I had to take a lead test in a gym— many years later than my first lead fall... which must have been around 2004 or 5. 

After many years of not being afraid to fall, I became more afraid of falling. You can speculate about reasons. But I discovered that practice falls help me deal with this fear.