Nick M wrote: Was just researching Hely's and came upon this thread. Hely's take a 3/8" or 10mm hole. Every other glue-in I've heard of needs bigger. This seems worth noting...
so what you're saying is that it's the only practical glue-in option for places where power drills aren't allowed?
Nick M wrote: Was just researching Hely's and came upon this thread. Hely's take a 3/8" or 10mm hole. Every other glue-in I've heard of needs bigger. This seems worth noting...
I (Bolt Products) make an 8mm resin bolt to be installed in a 3/8" hole.
so what you're saying is that it's the only practical glue-in option for places where power drills aren't allowed?
It's a clear advantage even for places where power drills are allowed.
A 10mm (3/8") hole takes about half as much power to drill than a 14mm (9/16") hole. If you need to drill 30-something holes a nasty hour's hike from the car, adding yet another battery pack (or two) to your 70lbs pack is brutal... but not as brutal as running out of power 1 or 2 bolts before finishing.
In addition to smaller hole to drill, what other benefits are there to using a 3/8" glue in?
Also, what are some of the disadvantages of using a 3/8" glue in, as opposed to the more common 1/2 or larger? Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that 3/8" is going to have more pressure and therefore rock deterioration in very soft rock types. As Jim has repeatedly made very clear, the smaller diameter doesn't really matter in terms of strength because it's already still far stronger than we need it to be. What else?
eli poss wrote: In addition to smaller hole to drill, what other benefits are there to using a 3/8" glue in?
Also, what are some of the disadvantages of using a 3/8" glue in, as opposed to the more common 1/2 or larger? Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that 3/8" is going to have more pressure and therefore rock deterioration in very soft rock types. As Jim has repeatedly made very clear, the smaller diameter doesn't really matter in terms of strength because it's already still far stronger than we need it to be. What else?
You reduce the bond area between the resin and the rock making good glueing more and more important.
Given the manufacturing method for Hely glue-in anchors it's surprising they did n't (apparently) consider an inference fit for inverse hole retention. They certainly won't stay inverted without duct tape!
Likely because they are offering a glue-in anchor product with improved corrosion resistant material (Duplex 2304) that compliments their (Duplex 2304) expansion anchor products.
Noting also that Petzl only offer a mechanical wedge bolt in a material other than 316 stainless (926/904L combo).
This is the important difference right?
Does anyone know yet if Duplex 2304 is going to be useful in corrosive environments?
Fixe Hardware's Hely PLX-HCR forged glue in bolts, installed with Hilti 500 v3 epoxy, snapped in shear at 30.94kn and 29.80kn and 27.74kn. This is one of the few bolts that only requires a 3/8" hole and the duplex stainless supposedly gives it more corrosion resistance.
Not sure if there really is any advantage to these unless reusing a 3/8" hole is priority to you. They seemed pleasant to work with but I'm not going be buying a bunch of these for my own personal use.
Well, it's great to know the breaking strength of brand new bolts...but what about after a year or twenty or sixty in a coastal environment? Is Duplex going be considered as good as titanium in the future? Or will it also wind up corroding and stress cracking? Claims are being made that this metal compares well with Ti, the bolts are being manufactured and sold and I assume they are being installed and put to use. Presently, the Hely bolt costs about a third less than titanium. If they are as good, I'd be stoked to start using them...but as usual, with bolting gear who really knows?
Jordy Morgan wrote: Well, it's great to know the breaking strength of brand new bolts...but what about after a year or twenty or sixty in a coastal environment? Is Duplex going be considered as good as titanium in the future? Or will it also wind up corroding and stress cracking? Claims are being made that this metal compares well with Ti, the bolts are being manufactured and sold and I assume they are being installed and put to use. Presently, the Hely bolt costs about a third less than titanium. If they are as good, I'd be stoked to start using them...but as usual, with bolting gear who really knows?
Hard to test longevity of bolts. We can learn a lot from those who replace bolts and we are collecting data from them. We hesitate to test bolts on routes because it snaps heads off or breaks hangers making it pretty tough to remove and reuse the same hole. We did get some gnarly hangers donated to us that we will install with fresh bolts to see what those hangers bust at.
Fixe duplex ss had issues but the only issues i'm aware of now is the products that have welds on them (PLX chains) as they have to use 1.4362 so it is easier to weld but the 1.4462 steel is the good stuff supposedly. I wouldn't say this is as corrosion resistant as titanium but if using them as a lower off anchor SS will last twice as long compared to Titanium for ropes cutting groves in them.
Jordy Morgan wrote: Well, it's great to know the breaking strength of brand new bolts...but what about after a year or twenty or sixty in a coastal environment? Is Duplex going be considered as good as titanium in the future? Or will it also wind up corroding and stress cracking? Claims are being made that this metal compares well with Ti, the bolts are being manufactured and sold and I assume they are being installed and put to use. Presently, the Hely bolt costs about a third less than titanium. If they are as good, I'd be stoked to start using them...but as usual, with bolting gear who really knows?
Why Fixe did n't include an inference fit on these bolts is a mystery so unfortunately Hely's cannot be installed (easily) inverted or at any serious angle without resorting to age old tricks such as gaffer tape to prevent the anchor from sliding out while the adhesive cures. I have installed Hely's totally inverted so speak from experience.
They do use a 10mm hole (drill battery advantage) but not without glue line reduction.
Outokumpu info gives good resistance for Duplex 2304 to the aggressive sulphates (calcium and magnesium predominantly) which with chlorides in combination, do the nasty SCC damage. That said the PREN for 2304 is low compared to other materials used to make anchors for rock climbing.
Ti is more costly versus Duplex 2304 but has no drawback with PREN values and is proven in the field, without material quality and fabrication setbacks that Fixe has experienced.
Ultimately until someone goes and installs a number of Hely's in an aggressive SCC affected region and we see the practical outcome then it's superstition beyond charts.
While I'm a distributor for Titan Climbing, from a personal perspective as a developer (knowing full well the time and costs involved in equipping) I'd rather pay a little extra but be sure that the job won't need to be repeated etc.
In areas where there is potential for corrosion then they should provide greater longevity. That said we are still waiting for a failed 316 grade bolt to appear that is verified etc.
I'd put them in the vice and bend them a bit, as a manufacturer this would be "specially post-formed to provide an interference fit for advanced bolting projects". The original question is difficult to answer, I've got 2205 bolts in service for over 10 years in what some consider corrosive environments and they are holding up as well as the older 304 and 316 bolts so we know basically nothing more. About 95% of the posted info on the internet is fundamentally wrong ( but never removed or corrected) so it's all just guessing.
Hard to test longevity of bolts. We can learn a lot from those who replace bolts and we are collecting data from them. We hesitate to test bolts on routes because it snaps heads off or breaks hangers making it pretty tough to remove and reuse the same hole. We did get some gnarly hangers donated to us that we will install with fresh bolts to see what those hangers bust at.
Fixe duplex ss had issues but the only issues i'm aware of now is the products that have welds on them (PLX chains) as they have to use 1.4362 so it is easier to weld but the 1.4462 steel is the good stuff supposedly. I wouldn't say this is as corrosion resistant as titanium but if using them as a lower off anchor SS will last twice as long compared to Titanium for ropes cutting groves in them.
Solid reply! One of the reasons I was looking at Duplex is the possibility of using SS ramshorn's rather than Ti.. although another question would be is the duplex compatible with the 304 or 316 in the ramshorn?
Above replies just reinforce the delima.. not enough info at this time, so it's gonna have to be Ti until further notice. I do have a small bit of info to add to the pool in terms of removed bolts in a corrosive area.
Sandstone seacliff in N. California, after approx 10 years, a couple of 10mm Fixe wedge bolts snapped. These were the type with two expansion sleeves I think and broke with almost no resistance. All but two routes were quickly replaced with titanium. Last year I replaced bolts on the two routes that had been left. At this point the original bolts were about 18 years old. Anyway, I was able to break off a decent number of different types of SS bolts and found that the 316 grade 3/8" and 1/2" wedge bolts all needed a huge amount of leverage to snap. All of the 10mm fixe wedge bolts broke easily. One old route was equipped with welded eye Fixe 10mm glue-ins with Simpson construction epoxy. I went after these with a propane torch and long crowbar and was eventually able to pull them out. These bolts seemed quite solid and took alot of heat to loosen. Unfortunately, none of this data is very scientific so probably of minimal use.
I have one of the removed SS glue-ins kicking around if any one wants to do any tests...
Jordy Morgan wrote: Above replies just reinforce the delima.. not enough info at this time, so it's gonna have to be Ti until further notice. I do have a small bit of info to add to the pool in terms of removed bolts in a corrosive area.
Sandstone seacliff in N. California, after approx 10 years, a couple of 10mm Fixe wedge bolts snapped. These were the type with two expansion sleeves I think and broke with almost no resistance. All but two routes were quickly replaced with titanium. Last year I replaced bolts on the two routes that had been left. At this point the original bolts were about 18 years old. Anyway, I was able to break off a decent number of different types of SS bolts and found that the 316 grade 3/8" and 1/2" wedge bolts all needed a huge amount of leverage to snap. All of the 10mm fixe wedge bolts broke easily. One old route was equipped with welded eye Fixe 10mm glue-ins with Simpson construction epoxy. I went after these with a propane torch and long crowbar and was eventually able to pull them out. These bolts seemed quite solid and took alot of heat to loosen. Unfortunately, none of this data is very scientific so probably of minimal use.
I have one of the removed SS glue-ins kicking around if any one wants to do any tests...
Hey if I were bolting or re-bolting on a seacliff i might just say Ti for now as well.
I think it is possible that you have missed an opportunitie though. If you spun out some of those 316 wedge bolts, you might have a better idea of their condition. Especially since the Fixe glue ins looked good.
Hey if I were bolting or re-bolting on a seacliff i might just say Ti for now as well.
I think it is possible that you have missed an opportunitie though. If you spun out some of those 316 wedge bolts, you might have a better idea of their condition. Especially since the Fixe glue ins looked good.
It is Ti for now...
There are still plenty of 316 grade wedge bolts all up and down the coast that could be removed and inspected, just not sure how one goes about spinning out a half inch wedge bolt??
Not sure what cliff you're at, but I broke a 15 year old 1/2" SS Fixe wedge bolt on Yardarm at the Shipwreck wall a few years ago under a very low load (like 10 pounds). The inside of the bolt was black while the head/hanger combo only showed light discoloration.
Most of the routes were upgraded to Ti and some bolts were very difficult to remove while one or two were also in poor condition. My takeaway is that you really cannot tell, so you can't trust any SS bolts that get a lot of salt action after a few years. I wouldn't install SS on anything seaside.
Yeah, I am talking about Shipwreck. The bolts that broke were the Fixe 10mm. Not the 1/2" 316 grade, those are tough to get out.
The SS bolts that I was asking about are the relatively new type made of duplex stainless. There are claims that it is comparable to Ti in terms of corrosion. Fixe's forged eye bolts also avoid the stamping and bending and mechanical tightening that create the "stress" from which SCC gets started.
But at this point I'm really just asking if anyone has any updated info on duplex, and plan to keep using Titans exclusively.
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