Meditation and Rock Climbing

Señor Arroz wrote:

Thanks for this. I agree. There's a huge disconnect between Western science and what is well-established and well known. Go to Dharamsala India and study meditation with Tibetans. They'll have no trouble articulating the techniques, the effects, the benefits and the traditions. 

Agreed, but to be clear, I'm criticizing "Western"* scientific studies of meditation from a "Western"* scientific perspective. A lot of meditators make wild claims which are considered "well-established" in their tradition, i.e. that they can drive cancers from their body through meditation, but I think those claims require [scientific] validation to be believed. My criticism isn't that they're doing bad Eastern meditation (although that may be true). My criticism is that they're doing bad "Western" science, because they're testing hypotheses which are far too broad (Does all of meditation have any positive effect?) rather than something specific (Does this specific form of meditation have this specific effect?).

* I say "Western" scientific because I'm addressing the "Western science vs. Eastern meditation" dichotomy you've raised. However, I'd like to clarify that there's nothing particularly Western about science: some of the best science being done, especially around meditation, is being done in Eastern countries. Likewise, there are plenty of Western meditation traditions which are very specific about what meditation is: Western esotericism, self-clearing, various forms of prayer, 60s/70s drug culture, some Wicca practices are all Western inventions. A lot of these were informed by Eastern traditions but have been so mutated since that influence through the lens of Western culture that they can't be called Eastern traditions. I understand and can talk to you about the problem through the lens of "East vs West" but I don't think it's necessarily a good way to look at the problem.

David, there's a reason I said "Western science" and not just "science." I was specifically referring to a strain of skepticism in so-called "Western" societies of traditions or even technologies that originate outside of same Western society. In my experience, most advanced practitioners of these practices just aren't particularly concerned with convincing The Lancet of their effectiveness. 

Señor Arroz wrote: David, there's a reason I said "Western science" and not just "science." I was specifically referring to a strain of skepticism in so-called "Western" societies of traditions or even technologies that originate outside of same Western society. In my experience, most advanced practitioners of these practices just aren't particularly concerned with convincing The Lancet of their effectiveness. 

I understand that, and I'm saying that:

1. Science isn't uniquely Western, and Eastern scientists are also skeptical of unproven Eastern traditions. Saying it's Western scientists who are skeptics about meditation makes it sound like it's just Western-centrism, or worse, racism. It downplays the fact that there area real scientific reasons to be skeptical about the effects of meditation given the current quality of research on the subject.
2. Many (maybe most?) scientists (Eastern AND Western) aren't skeptical of Eastern traditions because they're Eastern, they're skeptical of Eastern traditions because they're not scientifically proven.

At a more fundamental level: you're talking about who is convinced that something works, and I don't care about that at all, period, end of story. I'm more concerned with what is true, independent of who is convinced, and I believe that the only way to establish what is true in this case is through specific scientific experimentation, and I'm disappointed that few people seem to be doing specific scientific experimentation on meditation.

To me the crux of it is this: if you are meditating to get benefits or improve yourself or your climbing you are not meditating. If you do then you are too attached to the practice and the outcome. For those of you that meditate regularly and have been seeing improvements and positive outcomes you will be surprised if/when you reach the "dark night" stage. This is when most "roll up the mat" and quit. Look it up and be prepared for if/when this happens to you. It certainly won't help your climbing, and you may even lose the desire and pleasure of climbing along with other things you normally enjoy. Anyone that tells you meditation is all about benefits and bliss and happiness is likely a charlatan. 

Wow, I wasn’t sure what you meant when you said “dark night” and googled it.  I think this describes what happened to me once, and the above article really spoke to me.  I also wonder if there’s any connection between dark night and bad acid trips, as there seem to be a lot of similarities, especially the common reoccurrence of “demons.”

I'm not sure there is a connection between the dark night and bad trips, but you're right that they are similar. Dissolution of the self can be terrifying whether you get there with drugs or meditation. I think people that seek out ego death through drug use don't understand what they're getting themselves into. It's not a bad trip really, but it sure will feel like it to those unprepared. 

For a good description of the phases of meditation, including the dark night, check out this site https://alohadharma.com/2011/06/12/the-dark-night/

David Kerkeslager
Some of the more respected minds, i.e. Jon Kabat-Zinn, have at least focused down into i.e. mindfulness meditation, but even the more focused area of mindfulness meditation is still hopelessly broad. Particularly, it seems nonsensical to ignore the factor of what the meditator is being mindful of. It's my experience that a meditation which focuses the attention on death is different from a meditation which focuses the attention on the breath, is different from a meditation which focuses attention on a problem in one's life. These produce drastically different experiences but all fall under the mindfulness meditation definition because they're all "focusing the attention on something and attempting to keep the focus on that for a prolonged period of time"

Hey David, just to clarify: what you're referring to here with statements like "focusing the attention on something and attempting to keep the focus on that for a prolonged period of time" is classified broadly as concentration meditation.  In contrast, mindfulness meditation brings awareness to the present, and whatever comes with it, without attempting to direct the attention.  

I would also suggest that if you're disappointed that few people seem to be doing specific scientific experimentation, you might not be reading enough of the scientific literature.  Although it's difficult to wade through the thousands of so-so scientific articles, but *apparent* absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence - there are researchers out there committed to scholarly rigor in this field.

And on the topic of scientific sceptisicm, enjoy this article: Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials.

Thanks for your perspective!

Detrick Snyder wrote: Hey David, just to clarify: what you're referring to here with statements like "focusing the attention on something and attempting to keep the focus on that for a prolonged period of time" is classified broadly as concentration meditation.  In contrast, mindfulness meditation brings awareness to the present, and whatever comes with it, without attempting to direct the attention.

That's certainly a valid terminology, but that's now how Jon Kabat-Zinn defines the term "mindfulness meditation". While most of his meditation methods do focus on the present, they definitely don't eschew attempting to direct the attention: his breathing meditation attempts to direct the attention to the breath, body scan attempts to direct the attention to parts of the body in turn, etc.

Arguably the way you're using the terminology is more accurate; it's just not how the terms are used in a lot of the literature I've read and classes I've taken.

I would also suggest that if you're disappointed that few people seem to be doing specific scientific experimentation, you might not be reading enough of the scientific literature.  Although it's difficult to wade through the thousands of so-so scientific articles, but *apparent* absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence - there are researchers out there committed to scholarly rigor in this field.

This is certainly true. My current meditation practice is fairly stable and I haven't read anything about it in the last few years, so it's probable that new research has emerged, too.

And on the topic of scientific sceptisicm, enjoy this article: Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials.

Thanks for the read! I'll check it out.

EDIT: Just skimmed the link. That's funny! But I'd point out that science doesn't necessarily have to be formalized experiments. If observational evidence is broad enough to demonstrate a conclusion (i.e. that parachutes work--many people surviving multiple parachute jumps is well-documented) then we can still draw conclusions readily. Meditation differs in that observational evidence ISN'T widely agreed upon, and many claimed effects aren't widely evident. I think there's enough observational evidence to say that meditation has some effects, but which effects and to what extent is very much not evident in the same way that parachute efficacy is.

Detrick Snyder wrote: In contrast, mindfulness meditation brings awareness to the present, and whatever comes with it, without attempting to direct the attention.  

I have no idea what that sentence means. "...brings awareness to the present..." sure sounds exactly like "...attempting to direct the attention." And how is it at all possible to not be aware of the present as we all live in the present from microsecond to microsecond?

Marc801 C Wrote:
I have no idea what that sentence means. "...brings awareness to the present..." sure sounds exactly like "...attempting to direct the attention." And how is it at all possible to not be aware of the present as we all live in the present from microsecond to microsecond?

Thanks for pointing out that ambiguity.  I am certainly no meditation expert, but I can try to do the question justice according to my experience.

"Bringing" here is a bit of a misnomer: "bringing awareness" might be better considered a "non-action".  One is not forcing attention to do anything, one is allowing attention to rest on the present; it is a practice of "non-doing".  When our minds wander as they do, letting that wandering train of thought to pass and allowing the mind to come back to the present is at the core of mindfulness meditation.  No amount of my rationalizations of mindfulness will give you a realistic understanding of what that tradition of mindfulness is about, so I suggest reading a couple chapters of the Tao Te Ching.

With regard to the second point, most of us exist in the present, there can be no doubt about that.  But almost always we are thinking about something, whether that be in the past or in the future.  Even when we're thinking about the present, we're ideating about the experience, thus disengaging us from the full experience of presence. Mindfulness practices are a way of simply being in the present, without attachment or judgement and with a layer or two of cognitive filtering removed.

I'm not trying to spew BS or get you to try meditating, just clarifying some definitions. Does this make more sense?

Marc801 C wrote: I have no idea what that sentence means. "...brings awareness to the present..." sure sounds exactly like "...attempting to direct the attention." And how is it at all possible to not be aware of the present as we all live in the present from microsecond to microsecond?

Living in the past, awaiting a future that never comes, memory and expectation. I mean, you're right in a way, but I'd say most people's consciousness is in the past or the future.

“Life exists only at this very moment, and in this moment it is infinite and eternal. For the present moment is infinitely small; before we can measure it, it has gone, and yet it persists forever.” 
Watts

Instead of "directing the attention" I would restate it in this way though: watching the attention. It is a technique to help you to come to the understanding that you are not your thoughts, feelings or emotions. After all who is the "I" that is watching "me"?
 
From the site I posted above:
"This is the technique for Vipassana: note your experience as it happens in the moment. Imagine that reality is sending thoughts, sensations, and emotions to you down a conveyor belt and you have to put a post-it note on each one as it goes by, and on each post-it note is a one or two-word phrase summarizing what it is. You do not take anything off the conveyor belt, and you do not get caught up in any new shiny thing that comes down the conveyor belt. You simply do your job and note it and let it go." 

Somehow the idea of clearing the mind in meditation became widespread and it is utterly incorrect.

My favorite line on the site:
"Many versions of meditation that are taught are not much more than mystical versions of self-soothing." 

Marc801C I think you probably just had shitty meditation teachers. You said you could never reach a meditative state, which has me scratching my head as I try to understand what you think a meditative state is exactly. 

Re: David Kerkeslager

Thanks for pointing that [how Jon Kabat-Zinn defines the term "mindfulness meditation" ] out.  I think the differing definitions might arise from different target audiences.  For people immersed in a culture so estranged from these concepts, some amount of directing is necessary for them to get a glimpse of the experience of mindfulness and presence.  I contend that this focusing of the attention, however, is a stepping stone to true mindfulness.  Ie. start by becoming mindful of something, and once that neural pathway has been strengthened, one could move on to mindfulness of nothing in particular (aka the present moment).

As for the article on parachute use for preventing death upon jumping out of a plane... It's just a tongue in cheek response.  Your reply is appropriate and well heeded.

For a more scientific approach I recommend the resources (website, podcast, books, and app) of Sam Harris.

Ashort wrote: To me the crux of it is this: if you are meditating to get benefits or improve yourself or your climbing you are not meditating. If you do then you are too attached to the practice and the outcome. For those of you that meditate regularly and have been seeing improvements and positive outcomes you will be surprised if/when you reach the "dark night" stage. This is when most "roll up the mat" and quit. Look it up and be prepared for if/when this happens to you. It certainly won't help your climbing, and you may even lose the desire and pleasure of climbing along with other things you normally enjoy. Anyone that tells you meditation is all about benefits and bliss and happiness is likely a charlatan.

Ehhh, most everyone starts meditating for the benefits -- one would have to be at a fairly advanced stage of practice for an expectation of outcomes to be a true hindrance.

I do suppose meditation could be helpful for climbing, but the benefits I think would be on the margin.  With a lot of practice, one might develop the ability to catch feelings before they form -- in essence, discard fear at will.  But we're talking hundreds if not thousands of hours on the cushion.  

Along the way, one would likewise confront some pretty heavy stuff: reality is not what it seems, conventional time and space do not exist,  conceptions of body/mind/thoughts/feelings are radically inaccurate, and most everything sought or cared about is hollow.  And it's an open question whether these realizations may complement or clash with (read: obliterate) one's current form of existence.

So I would think it a lot more effective to simply practice climbing to get better at climbing.

Ashort wrote: I'm not sure there is a connection between the dark night and bad trips, but you're right that they are similar. Dissolution of the self can be terrifying whether you get there with drugs or meditation. I think people that seek out ego death through drug use don't understand what they're getting themselves into. It's not a bad trip really, but it sure will feel like it to those unprepared.

For a good description of the phases of meditation, including the dark night, check out this site https://alohadharma.com/2011/06/12/the-dark-night/

Thanks for sharing.  I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “dissolution of the self can be terrifying.”  It certainly was for me, although I think I came out of it better.

Jake Thomsonwrote: Dean potter

ALRIGHTY THEN