Mtn. Guide question

I utilize guides quite a bit, at least once a year, because all of my regular partners are pretty much retired from adventure climbing. So my experiences have run the gamut from great to not so great. They all received a tip.

My best experience was in the Black Hills, with a fantastic guide that was super well informed about all of the climbs, knew the local history, could point out new route development, was safe etc. We did some warm up climbs so he could gauge my ability. Then we climbed routes up to multipitch trad 5.9(God's own drunk). We figured it was at least a 1000 ft. day.  
I wanted to climb some harder pitches(The Naked Rib) the next day and he pretty much shut that down. I never fell, or really struggled the previous day, so I don't know why he wouldn't entertain the 5.10 I wanted to climb. We ended up on spire 4 doing West Gruesome and Conn route and the first pitch of Hang a right. Then we drove to the Bloody Spire and did that.

Any ideas? He never gave a satisfactory answer, but I was still happy with the climbs we did do. He may not have been comfortable telling me that he didn't think I was a strong enough climber to do the route I requested???

He may not have been comfortable telling you that he wasn't as strong of a climber as he said and the 5.10 route was too hard for him or had scary runouts or something?

Guides are always in no fall zones. 5.10 in the black hills isn't usually easy. My guess is he was 95% confident he wouldn't fall but not 100%. Sounds like a good day out anyway. I miss it out there!

I'm not familiar with the route you couldn't do (I will look it up when I get to a computer) but I wouldn't let my client lead something non-trivial unless i had known them for a while and had a relationship established.

Okay I looked it up, yeah average of 30 feet between bolts on 5.10 terrain with micro-gear to shorten run outs. I think it's very sound to not take a client up that.

Brett Millard wrote: He may not have been comfortable telling you that he wasn't as strong of a climber as he said and the 5.10 route was too hard for him or had scary runouts or something?

Maybe, he seemed pretty solid. The Naked Rib is a .10c R rated route

Buck Rio wrote:

Maybe, he seemed pretty solid. The Naked Rib is a .10c R rated route

There is a big jump in difficulty from 5.9 to 5.10c R. 

This is a great thread because we get to read guesses about why one person made a decision on a particular day in the past, from people who weren't there and don't know anyone involved.

i have used several guides, i doubt it was you, the route was probably out of his comfort level or a bad experience on the route before

i had a guide one time who let me top rope something well above my level just to give it a try and i did the route with no issues, he even hinted it was a route he struggled to lead, but he didnt need to climb the route as it was top accessible.... with the several guides i have used none have shot me down because of my ability, they figured out a way to let me get my moneys worth.

Protecting R rated routes for the follower can be tricky.   If he puts you in a situation for a bad fall, it's on him.   He might not have been willing to put you on a climb 4 grades harder that exposes the follower.   

Sloppy Second wrote: This is a great thread because we get to read guesses about why one person made a decision on a particular day in the past, from people who weren't there and don't know anyone involved.

Actually I should have said in the beginning I want guides or people involved in the guiding biz to reply to the reasons they would shoot a competent client down for a very straightforward route on a top rope. 

Perhaps the guide service has a black list of routes the owner doesn't want his people on??? I don't know. 

I have also had the exact opposite experience in Eldorado Canyon with a guide taking me up a route with terrible swing potential, and his anchors were solid but "minimalist". We had climbed the YS together earlier in the week, and I guess he thought I was solid enough to do X-M (I didn't fall, but I almost shit my pants on the second pitch).  I am pretty sure he was freelancing the second day, because he insisted I pay him cash... 

We originally went to do Blind Faith and Bastille but they were both busy.

Ok, I'll play the guessing game.

Despite what MP profiles may lead you to believe, climbers that can comfortably lead runout 10c are rare, This is true even among professional guides.

Your guide probably did not want to deal with leading near his limit. For him it was just another day at work.

Sloppy Second wrote: Ok, I'll play the guessing game.

Despite what MP profiles may lead you to believe, climbers that can comfortably lead runout 10c are rare, This is true even among professional guides.

Your guide probably did not want to deal with leading near his limit. For him it was just another day at work.

Lol, you may be right about the day at work part, everyone want to go home at the end of the day. One of the reasons I hire guides is 'cuz I can't lead a trad .10c, but I can top rope one...

I do remember another guide in CO saying something about having a climb wired before she guides on it, maybe that was part of it. 

So I texted the guide in question, he is currently in the NE guiding ice, and he remembered me   and after some back and forth said the route in question is not one that he was super familiar with, and had never had clients on it before, and would not take a client on it until he had lapped the route a few times, knew all of the placements, and the way down.

Simple and makes good sense to me. He also said there are harder routes that he would be OK with in 2019 when I go back.

It's a small  world.  Some of us  know the guide  and he is  super  solid and  nice.  .  I know I  certainly would  not  guide  a 10c R or for that  matter  any  R route  unless I had it  completely  wired. Kind of a dick  move to ask a guide to  lead  a really  serious route and then bitch about it  on Mp. 10cR in the  Black Hills is  serious.  

You finally asked the correct person instead of MP. Surprisingly, some of the speculators here were pretty close to on target guessing that the route was pretty serious and he wasn't comfortable taking clients on it yet.

I would say any guide worth their salt is going to want to have a route dialed before they take a client on it. Would you lead a route near your limit with an unknown belayer?

Nick Goldsmith wrote: Kind of a dick  move to ask a guide to  lead  a really  serious route and then bitch about it  on Mp. 10cR in the  Black Hills is  serious.  

It may be a breeze for the guide to lead it. The client doesn't know. The guide declined and that's the way the cookie crumbles. But a "dick move" to ask? Naw.

Nick Goldsmith wrote: It's a small  world.  Some of us  know the guide  and he is  super  solid and  nice.  .  I know I  certainly would  not  guide  a 10c R or for that  matter  any  R route  unless I had it  completely  wired. Kind of a dick  move to ask a guide to  lead  a really  serious route and then bitch about it  on Mp. 10cR in the  Black Hills is  serious.  

How was this bitching? In fact the OP said:

 “My best experience was in the Black Hills, with a fantastic guide that was super well informed about all of the climbs, knew the local history, could point out new route development, was safe etc.“

Dick  move to ask and then  bitch about it on the  internet.  As far as  just asking  it completely  depends on how you  ask.  If you ask in a way  that  implies that I  paid  you  so  I own you and  you  better haul me up that  10c R  so  I  can  spray to  my  buddies  back in Minnesota  yes it is a dick move.  

I know that guy. He's a crusher, good guide, and a super guy. I'm glad you got it sorted out. Next time maybe ask your guide in person to explain their reasoning, most of us are more than happy to do it. Bitching about it on the internet is poor form. It's a small world out there and word gets around. 

OP never whined or mentioned the guide's name and complimented the guide multiple times.

As best I can tell he wasn't bitching. He was asking a general question without pointing a finger at the guide, even indicating in his question he wondered if the guide didn't think he could handle it?

Nick and Andrew, maybe some of the responses he got on here were not favorable to the guide but you need to read better, Bucks post was nothing more than a compliment to the guide? In fact when the guides skill was questioned Buck said he seemed solid. If I'm missing something that was said maybe you guys should point to it.

Nick Goldsmith wrote: It's a small  world.  Some of us  know the guide  and he is  super  solid and  nice.  .  I know I  certainly would  not  guide  a 10c R or for that  matter  any  R route  unless I had it  completely  wired. Kind of a dick  move to ask a guide to  lead  a really  serious route and then bitch about it  on Mp. 10cR in the  Black Hills is  serious.  

Hey, I never meant to sound like I was whining or impugning the character of our friend. Pretty sure if I would have asked at the time he (names rhymes the Flyann) would have told me the reason...I just didn't ask.

I think VERY highly of this cat....I bet if I inquired, he would be ready to lead the route in question by my next visit. He is that cool of a dude. Of course that would mean I would have to be ready to  second it   in good style. 

Anyway, I spread his name around the Twin Cities as the go-to guy for the Black Hills, DT and Colorado and I am going back next fall.