Simulrapping is King

Em Cos wrote:Simul-rapping is contentious because it is not all positives - the benefits it (may or may not) provide have clear trade-offs. Whether those benefits are real, significant, or worthwhile and whether the trade-offs are negligible or serious or able to be mitigated successfully, which situations the technique should be used in and when it should be avoided, all are going to vary for each climber. What you need to do as a climber, new or experienced, is understand what those benefits and risks, pros and cons, are to the technique and decide for yourself where you want to draw the line for your own risk vs. reward. Those benefits and risks of simul-rapping are easy to find, and enumerated well here in this very thread. 

Wise words written about simul-rapping, that apply to a far larger range of issues.  Climbers are continually faced with trade-offs, and perceptions about risks and benefits are to some extent individual.  One of the challenges of the internet evironment is having to negotiate demeaning snark and/or ecstatic promotion hurled by adherents of one or the other point of view and still arrive at a personal balance that is as rational and informed as possible without being distorted by partisan attempts at coercion.  Given that information, circumstances, and equipment change, one also has to be avoid rigidity without hopping on every passing bandwagon.  It ain't easy, one can't be "right" all the time, and given that one's life might literally hang in the balance, an abundance of caution is appropriate.

Can someone explain to me how the introduction of a tether between both rappellers (clipping PAS’s to each other) doesn’t mitigate the risk of simulrapping? Thanks! 

One critical  thing for  less  experienced  climers is to  remember that at the end of the day  the only person who can  really look after you  is  you.  Please  regardless of how  experienced your  partner is if  something  makes you  uncomfortable  speak  up and  have them  explain it to you.  Methodical and  calm is  always  safer.  

Noah White wrote: Can someone explain to me how the introduction of a tether between both rappellers (clipping PAS’s to each other) doesn’t mitigate the risk of simulrapping? Thanks! 

I hardly ever simul-rap when a rap is part of the day.

Still, I believe it would keep both individuals more aware that their rap safety is dependent on their partner.  And so they would be less likely to make fatal decisions that they would normally non-fatally make when rapping solo (a.k.a. solo habits).

Or it just increases the odds that one will catch the mistake of the other since they remain close to each other.

All that said, I don’t really like it as a solution to, say, one prematurely letting go of the brake strand.

Noah White wrote: Can someone explain to me how the introduction of a tether between both rappellers (clipping PAS’s to each other) doesn’t mitigate the risk of simulrapping? Thanks! 

Can you explain how you think it does?
The main way simul-rapping increases your risk exposure is that you are both dependent on each other as a counter-weight. Meaning, if either of your rappels fails, you will both fall. If you are falling, being tethered to another person who is also falling will not keep you off the ground. Though I suppose it will be convenient for the body-recovery team that you'll stay close together when you hit the ground?

I think some people like to tether together as a reminder to move at the same rate - but in one case brought up where simul-rapping is necessary, a spire with no anchor, you and your partner are by necessity on opposite sides of a formation and tethering together isn't possible. Also, I'm not sure it really matters that you rap at the same rate, other than you can't unweight your end until you and your partner are both anchored in and ready to unweight at the same time - so you'll have to wait for them one way or another. If there's another reason for tethering or a different risk it mitigates I'd love to hear it, I've always been puzzled by this particular piece of simul-rapping advice, but it's so ubiquitous I'm very willing to believe I'm missing something....

People make mistakes, especially when they are doing things that go against habits they have ingrained. My partner got off rappel while I wasn't yet secure when we were simulrapping, on a 2x1' ledge when the rope was unweighted (unweighting the rope was the first mistake, but it's pretty awkward to arrive at a ledge and not unweight the rope). I noticed before I got secure and didn't lean on the rope, but if I did lean on the rope, I would have taken a long, long ride. Getting secure and coming off rappel is an automatic thing for a lot of people... if I were to ever simulrap again I would make sure I was communicating with my partner after EVERY step, as a rule. Maybe use the daisy connection between both climbers, which would alleviate this specific risk.

But what if your partner loses control!?!?
They won't.  They have a prusik backup.

Which have been shown not to work. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote: Some internet wanker upthread suggested that because I  carry 2 and sometimes 3 headlamps that I must be afraid of the dark. Silly Hogwash. I carry extra headlamps because A. they are very light and cheap. The BD rigs are something like 19 bucks. B. they are very handy and knowing the whole party is covered takes all the stress out of getting caught in the dark.  Often a partner forgets their headlamp. here use this one. Boom, Done.  Batteries die it's no big deal just whip out the spare and keep on trucking. Boom, Done.  I led the Black Dike at night in a blizzard with two ultra light headlamps rocking for a bit of extra light.  My normal rig is to have one in my pack and one in my pocket but sometimes there is an extra in the pack.  No biggie. And yes , knowing that we have light makes the fact that it is getting dark pretty much a non factor. 

Do you carry a Cordellete?

Nick Goldsmith wrote: Actually no they are not.  they are small light tools that come in handy and take up almost zero space or weight. 

Is this what you mean? :-)

A tether will prevent one partner from dropping too far if there is a weight imbalance - for example, if one partner fully commits his/her weight to the rope while going over a ledge, but the other climber is partially standing on the ledge.  But that's assuming both are maintaining control of the rope.  It won't do anything to prevent an accident if one partner loses control.  I typically don't use one.  My partner and I communicate when we are weighting/unweighting the rope at each anchor, and maintain full weight on the rope between anchors.

I always test my prusik when setting up the rappel, and feel comfortable with it as a backup.  But more importantly, I trust myself and my partner to maintain control of the rope, just like I trust them to maintain control while catching my fall, lowering me, etc.  

With my main partner, we can rappel just as fast as if going one at a time, staying generally close together but not too worried about a little separation.  Then we're both working on setting up the next rappel.  One is pulling rope while the other is untying/retying knots, or stacking rope.  Often we saddlebag the rope if there are features to catch or other climbers below.  We are significantly faster when simulrapping.

Anyway, I don't mean to proselytize about the virtues of simulrapping, and I probably only do it 20-30% of the time I rappel.  I just don't think it's something to be afraid of.  Like so many other things in climbing, learn how/why/pros/cons/etc, and then use it to your advantage in the right situation.  

Jaren Watson wrote:

. . . if improperly used, correct?

No, they just don't activate once you get up enough fall speed. rgold can post the details again if you missed the data the first time around. 

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Is this what you mean? :-)

Give poor Nick some credit - normally he would have written "know there knot"

Nick Goldsmith wrote: Actually no they are not.  they are small light tools that come in handy and take up almost zero space or weight. 

I sometimes think carrying a bowl and a lighter is too much extra junk to bring along but I sometimes do in the name of having the right tools for the job.

rgold wrote:

Wise words written about simul-rapping, that apply to a far larger range of issues.  Climbers are continually faced with trade-offs, and perceptions about risks and benefits are to some extent individual.  One of the challenges of the internet evironment is having to negotiate demeaning snark and/or ecstatic promotion hurled by adherents of one or the other point of view and still arrive at a personal balance that is as rational and informed as possible without being distorted by partisan attempts at coercion.  Given that information, circumstances, and equipment change, one also has to be avoid rigidity without hopping on every passing bandwagon.  It ain't easy, one can't be "right" all the time, and given that one's life might literally hang in the balance, an abundance of caution is appropriate.

So, add in being new, the pressure to want to "fit in", wanting to look like you know what you're doing (and you don't, really) even if whatever it is scares the crap out of you....

And you are 20. Only climbed in a gym, but your bros have this cool thing in mind, and you're invited! Finally!

Gulp.

Myself, you bet I can, and will, think for myself, speak up for myself, ask questions, and argue my ass  off, lol! But as the sorta resident noob here, I'm always looking at these things through the eyes of a beginner.

Thanks so much, all of you. The responses upstream are precisely what I hope sinks in, for someone out there, and we've perhaps helped them have that tiny bit more confidence.

For in between folks, like me? Knowledge. Soooo valuable!

Best, Helen

No  I do not  carry a  cordeltte . Mobes.  precisely. 

I read that page. Lots of discussion there about being efficient on a climb. But just one person - Mikey - mentions simul-rap.  Almost like a minor bump on an otherwise spectacular mountain range.

Unless you know Mikey, I would not say that this is what experienced climbers are saying.

Oh yeah. There’s no way the guy with seven FAs on the Fitz Roy Massif and the guy who put up Father Time knows what he’s talking about. 

Noah White wrote: Oh yeah. There’s no way the guy with seven FAs on the Fitz Roy Massif and the guy who put up Father Time knows what he’s talking about. 

Sarcasm noted. And not what I said.

Bill Lawry wrote: I read that page. Lots of discussion there about being efficient on a climb. But just one person - Mikey - mentions simul-rap.  Almost like a minor bump on an otherwise spectacular mountain range.

Unless you know Mikey, I would not say that this is what experienced climbers are saying.

That one guy is kind of a big deal...

https://www.mikeylikesrocks.com/about/indexhttps://www.patagonia.com/ambassadors/climbing/mikey-schaefer.html

Ted Pinson wrote:

That one guy is kind of a big deal...

https://www.mikeylikesrocks.com/about/indexhttps://www.patagonia.com/ambassadors/climbing/mikey-schaefer.html

Acknowledged.