Not redundant top rope anchor?

Leliko Mana wrote:

Anything else I should be expecting?

You should expect for you, and maybe your partner, but mostly only you, to be responsible for your safety. 

Here is the whole point of redundancy.
It isn't about engineering and weight/force dispersion.
It is about numbers.
It is about mitigating chance.
Tragic accidents are almost always a convergence of more than one critical mistake happening at the same time.
A redundant system pushes the odds that multiple errors are kessened by having more safeties in place. 

Leliko Mana wrote:

What does my buying of a bunch of cans have to do with this anchor?

At the top of trad routes I expect to find a place to build a decent REDUNDANT anchor. Anything else I should be expecting?

How about no place to anchor. It happens sometimes.... just get back and sit down. 

Leliko Mana wrote:

My friend and I wanted to bolt a local route and we were seriously forbidden from doing so by one of such organizations.

If you don't know what makes a good top rope anchor, you probably shouldn't be running around bolting routes at a popular crag (or anywhere else for that matter).

1995 edition of the guidebook. There’s absolutely no need for any further bolting on this rock.

Edit to add: the routes in question are H (Swiss Cheese) and I (Corner Route). The large rock horn above the two is what people tie off with 30-40’ lengths of webbing. It is also possible to tie off from trees behind the formation, though that’s not advisable because doing some hinders access to the top for others.

To the OP’s original question, your anchor is fine. One could add another sling/rope around the horn, but would that serve to add anything? Aside from the biner, the anchor is as bomber as the rope you’re climbing on. 

You had a ton of extra rope.  You could have run the excess (which isn't bearing any weight, it is just coiled up) around the horn and then run a strand back to the TR.  My concern isn't the horn, it is that you might abraid the rope and cause it to fail, at which point you have no back-up.  Most redundant bolted anchors are into the same sheet of rock, which if it were to fail, would dump both anchors.

I had a similar set up last week where I ran a sling through a slot unter a large pancake boulder, made a loop, and used that to build an anchor.  I decided to run two of them, just in case something happened to the webbing; nothing was going to move the boulder.

Redundancy is a response to uncertainty.  It is not an intrinsic law that has to be satisfied in all cases.  When you have an anchor whose failure is a matter of cosmic insignificance, redundancy is neither required nor even sensible.  That horn is a fine example of a situation that does not call for additional reinforcement.

Fourth post works for me, and perhaps padding if edge is sharp:

Alex R wrote:The one thing I would have done differently is joined the two strands before they go over the edge. If you end up swinging at all on the TR, the strands might rub along the edge, so making this section redundant and isolated is a good choice. 

I would be comfortable having my entire family hanging from that anchor. If there was any force large enough to break that anchor, it would break your redundant  anchor too.

A solid tree, a solid block, a single steel ring attached to two bolts are all not redundant, and I would take them over a 4 piece redundant gear anchor any day of the week. Your rope, belay device and harness are all non-redundant.

Rope protectors if you don’t have enough rope to wrap the horn twice would work. Add an extra carabiner at the junction of the eight and inline eight. That’ll do. Or buy longer static line. 

Leliko Mana wrote:

What does my buying of a bunch of cans have to do with this anchor?

At the top of trad routes I expect to find a place to build a decent REDUNDANT anchor. Anything else I should be expecting?

Perhaps less entitlement? No one else is responsible for your safety or for your enjoyment. No one is responsible for bolting convenience anchors for you.

Lower your expectations. It's not the gym. Sometimes there are no good anchors at all, never mind redundant anchors. Figuring out how to minimize risk is part of trad climbing.

My concern isn't the horn, it is that you might abraid the rope and cause it to fail, at which point you have no back-up.  Most redundant bolted anchors are into the same sheet of rock, which if it were to fail, would dump both anchors.

At that particular crag, rope damage isn't much of a concern. The rock is soft limestone, it's usually more of a concern that the rope will wear grooves into the rock. 

Well that and getting there before the giant REI group gets there and monopolizes the routes for thier beginner groups. 

I've contemplated a similar situation to that; where you have a really good anchor to tie to, with zero chance of it failing. The thing I've thought I would probably do differently would be to run a second cord (or use the additional rope you have coiled there) around the rock, tie it off (or girth hitch, or whatever, similar to the first cord) and tie it along with the first cord into a masterpoint above your locking biners.  That would give you redundancy in case there was a flaw in the first cord, or it was compromised for some reason (say, angry badgers chewed on it...).

Thanks for posting your question. Its helpful to see what others deal with in the wild.

rgold wrote:  When you have an anchor whose failure is a matter of cosmic insignificance

Another ability of the esteemed Mr Goldstone emerges - how many knew he was a zen master in his spare time?

Gavin Towey wrote:

At that particular crag, rope damage isn't much of a concern. The rock is soft SANDstone, it's usually more of a concern that the rope will wear grooves into the rock. 

Well that and getting there before the giant REI group gets there and monopolizes the routes for thier beginner groups. 

Was at Goat just a couple of months ago, set it up just as pictured, BUT I'm sure there's a cam placement [either a gold (#2) or Red (#1), can't remember which ] at the base of the huge "horn".  Furthermore, there are bolts at the top...just no hangers.  Bring your own hanger(s) and nut(s), or "sling" the bolt itself with a wire nut with the nut moved 1/2 inch away from the top loop. I would NEVER TR on JUST the wire, but it works as a second back up (second to the cam primary back up) .

Then, of course, the "horn" isn't going to fail shy or a Richter-Scale 8 earthquake.

Eric Engberg wrote:

Another ability of the esteemed Mr Goldstone emerges - how many knew he was a zen master in his spare time?

If an anchor falls in the forest, does it make a sound?

The 'responsible organization' needs to add a second horn before somebody gets hurt.

Mark E Dixon wrote: The 'responsible organization' needs to add a second horn before somebody gets hurt.

C'mon wind erosion, hustle already!!

Thanks for all the great feedback... definitely some padding to protect the edge of the cliff (and rope) would have been nice. I could probably rigged another strand from my extra rope but it wasn't enough to loop twice around the horn.

Brings up another question:

There are a few bolts there (and at other climbs in Castle Rock) but no hangars. Is it "ok" to bring your own hangars and add them to the existing bolts (assuming the bolts seem ok). I always wondered why there were bolts with no hangars around. Can I use them?

-D