ATL gym accident

Not if you’re rope soloing, second to rap, at the top of a sport route cleaning the anchor, etc.

Tradiban wrote:

The difference between autobelays and that other stuff is that you have a partner to double check you.

You are missing the point. If people are setting out free soloing shit by "accident", its because they are totally unfocused, improperly trained, or inexperienced. Nothing to do with a random belay device. You can't pin the fault on that device. That can happen across every discipline of climbing...

Not saying this will solve the problem, but I was at a gym Helsinki (Kiipeily Areena) and they had this alternative auto-belay "don't climb above me because you're not hooked in" gate that I thought was kind of interesting. It's an orange, triangular metal bar that hinged down (held up so long as auto-belay cable was hooked to it, swung down out of the way when you hook the cable to your harness instead).

I know several people who have inadvertently free soloed 'with' an auto belay.
As far as I can tell, they were, in fact, too focused on climbing, rather than being totally unfocused.
They were experienced, well trained climbers.

Many people will do 10 or more auto belay routes in a quick 1-2 hour session.
Human attention being what it is, it's remarkable there aren't more of these accidents.

The fabric triangles are helpful, but unfortunately it's not uncommon for them to be taken down by roped route climbers who forget to replace them, which pretty much voids the effect.

Failing to clip into an autobelay is the equivalent of a roped climber failing to complete his/her tie-in knot.
If Lynn Hill and John Long can make this mistake, I'm pretty sure any of us posting here can do the same.

To paraphrase Kalous "Check your knot- and - your autobelay!"

Wes Turner wrote: You are missing the point. If people are setting out free soloing shit by "accident", its because they are totally unfocused, improperly trained, or inexperienced. Nothing to do with a random belay device. You can't pin the fault on that device. That can happen across every discipline of climbing...

See Mark's comment.

And like I said earlier, from real life research I know that most autobelay accidents are from experienced climbers.

Tradiban wrote:

See Mark's comment.

And like I said earlier, from real life research I know that most autobelay accidents are from experienced climbers.

And many real world accidents are from experienced climbers. What's your point again? 

And the other guy is suggesting people are "too focused"... lol. Ok guys, keep at it. Its user error. Nothing to do with the device. 

It's not that unusual to be so focused on the opening sequence - especially if it is somewhat sketchy before you can get gear - that you forget something basic - tie into the rope - take the rack/draws, etc.  Novice climbers doubt that would ever happen, the more experienced you are the more likely it has happened to you.

Eric Engberg wrote: It's not that unusual to be so focused on the opening sequence - especially if it is somewhat sketchy before you can get gear - that you forget something basic - tie into the rope - take the rack/draws, etc.  Novice climbers doubt that would ever happen, the more experienced you are the more likely it has happened to you.

Yes. Agree 100%. Again, user error. You two are confusing the issue, or I am misunderstanding you. Its about focusing on the right things as a climber. If you aren't, your extreme focus (as you are saying), or lack thereof (as I am saying), is going to be a problem. More experienced climbers find themselves in this situation, usually, due to complacency. When you have done it 10,000x … it doesn't feel like something you need to think about/focus on.... Complacency is the key word here for the experienced climber.  But again, why blame the device?

Wes Turner wrote:

Yes. Agree 100%. Again, user error. You two are confusing the issue, or I am misunderstanding you. Its about focusing on the right things as a climber. If you aren't, your extreme focus (as you are saying), or lack thereof (as I am saying), is going to be a problem. More experienced climbers find themselves in this situation, usually, due to complacency. When you have done it 10,000x … it doesn't feel like something you need to think about/focus on.... Complacency is the key word here for the experienced climber.  But again, why blame the device?

It's the device because sans autobelay this type of accident doesn't happen. Ever heard of The Scientific Method?

@Wes- I don't think anybody is blaming the device although I could have missed a post or two. (OK TB blames the device ;-)
It's clearly user error.

However, upthread you made the statement "If people are setting out free soloing shit by "accident", its because they are totally unfocused, improperly trained, or inexperienced."

This is incorrect and I think it is counterproductive to denigrate the victims of this kind of accident.

Part of the way human brains work is to 'automatize' frequently repeated behavior.
Doing autobelay after autobelay over long periods in a busy hectic gym is a set-up for mistakes.
I don't use them often so I'm paranoid about double checking.

But I'm not so vain as to think I'd be immune from error if I used them all the time.

Mark E Dixon wrote: @Wes- I don't think anybody is blaming the device although I could have missed a post or two. (OK TB blames the device ;-)
It's clearly user error.

However, upthread you made the statement "If people are setting out free soloing shit by "accident", its because they are totally unfocused, improperly trained, or inexperienced."

This is incorrect and I think it is counterproductive to denigrate the victims of this kind of accident.

Part of the way human brains work is to 'automatize' frequently repeated behavior.
Doing autobelay after autobelay over long periods in a busy hectic gym is a set-up for mistakes.
I don't use them often so I'm paranoid about double checking.

But I'm not so vain as to think I'd be immune from error if I used them all the time.

So i agree with everything you said. I don’t think we disagree. But I’ll clarify....

Root cause of that accident: complacency/failure to focus on the task at hand. Repetitive task/failure to identify hazards. Operator error. That would be your OSHA investigation result.......ish. 

Preventative Measures: blue tarp/triangle, more stringent / better training. Roped off access. Etc... most have this now. 
Or, you could deem that it is so deadly to use that it is removed completely...but then they’d have to tell me why that doesn’t apply to just about all other aspects of climbing....or it’s just a selective application of that “logic.” 
I am not denigrating anyone or anything. But I won’t blame the device for operator error. And neither do you. It was complacency in most auto belay incidents...which you agree with.
And it has happened to me... just not on an autobelay. I know how fallible I am. And over 20+ years of climbing and through failures of many kinds I have become much more insulated to incidents that I was long ago. As are most. Maturity, safe and repeated routine, process, procedure...etc... all made me a much safer climber. But we are all vulnerable to this type of incident...but that’s human nature. I took issue with pointing any fingers at improperly used equipment.
And if these things are actually failing let me know! I just haven’t read that or heard that from anyone. 
So it sounds like we agree. 

Wes Turner wrote:

So i agree with everything you said. I don’t think we disagree. But I’ll clarify....

Root cause of that accident: complacency/failure to focus on the task at hand. Repetitive task/failure to identify hazards. Operator error. That would be your OSHA investigation result.......ish. 

Preventative Measures: blue tarp/triangle, more stringent / better training. Roped off access. Etc... most have this now. 
Or, you could deem that it is so deadly to use that it is removed completely...but then they’d have to tell me why that doesn’t apply to just about all other aspects of climbing....or it’s just a selective application of that “logic.” 
I am not denigrating anyone or anything. But I won’t blame the device for operator error. And neither do you. It was complacency in most auto belay incidents...which you agree with.
And it has happened to me... just not on an autobelay. I know how fallible I am. And over 20+ years of climbing and through failures of many kinds I have become much more insulated to incidents that I was long ago. As are most. Maturity, safe and repeated routine, process, procedure...etc... all made me a much safer climber. But we are all vulnerable to this type of incident...but that’s human nature. I took issue with pointing any fingers at improperly used equipment.
And if these things are actually failing let me know! I just haven’t read that or heard that from anyone. 
So it sounds like we agree. 

So what's your point? Preventative measures have been used and they don't work, people still forget to clip in. Most gyms have decided it's not worth the risk to have autobelays.

Has anyone here ever started up a climb before they tied in? I certainly have. Complacency can be a real issue with repetitive tasks, or so it seems.

The triangle bar that provides a physical barrier seems like a pretty decent idea.

Tradiban wrote:

So what's your point? Preventative measures have been used and they don't work, people still forget to clip in. Most gyms have decided it's not worth the risk to have autobelays.

I’ve made my point several times. The primary hazard has been “engineered out” of the equation in as effective a way as possible. (Tarp/gate barriers) Feel free to re-read it. For me, I’m ok with taking on the responsibility of clipping myself in. If you aren’t, that’s ok too. Climbing choices are personal. Additionally, some of us have spent hundreds of days climbing outdoors alone. Different core habits/standards are developed through that as well... that may lend to a higher level of comfort. YMMV

But now you’ve added that it’s a bad business decision. ....that’s up to the individual business to determine. 

Wes Turner wrote:

I’ve made my point several times. The primary hazard has been “engineered out” of the equation in as effective a way as possible. (Tarp/gate barriers) Feel free to re-read it. For me, I’m ok with taking on the responsibility of clipping myself in. If you aren’t, that’s ok too. Climbing choices are personal. Additionally, some of us have spent hundreds of days climbing outdoors alone. Different core habits/standards are developed through that as well... that may lend to a higher level of comfort. YMMV

But now you’ve added that it’s a bad business decision. ....that’s up to the individual business to determine. 

Tarps and gate biners don't work, people either climb around the barrier or wander to a different wall, still in autobelay mode, and climb. I know it's crazy but I think it says alot for the value of a partner.

For those who think Stone Summit is a shit-show, I'm amazed. I guess they haven't been to other climbing gyms then. I'd love to be able to visit SS on a regular basis - the route setting is good, the route grades are not sandbagged 4 grades, and there are more than ten lead routes (eight of which are being hogged for two hours by a climbing school).

To ban autobelays is a nanny-state, knee jerk reaction that punishes everyone for one person's mistake. Might as well ban all outdoor climbing if there is an accident (see: 2013 ban of climbing by DLNR in Hawaii after one accident).

Tradiban wrote:

Tarps and gate biners don't work, people either climb around the barrier or wander to a different wall, still in autobelay mode, and climb. I know it's crazy but I think it says alot for the value of a partner.

I agree with the value of a partner. 

Last night was pulling on plastic and a buddy of mine caught that my knot was only through the leg loops. While it would have probably been fine when I let go of the wall, complacency is real. It was the first time I had ever tied my knot wrong..... 

Brian wrote: If the gyms put one of these at the bottom of each autobelay it is pretty hard for even the most stoned idiot not to remember to clip in.  It is pretty hard to climb around it.
 

Hold my beer...

John Wilder wrote:

Do you know of any incidents where an accident occurred because someone climbed around the tarp? I can’t think of any offhand- all of the ones I’ve heard about have been people able to get on the wall with the autobelay strap pulled away from the wall.

Yes, I wasn't there so I don't know what exactly happened but the gym had them installed and yet someone still managed to get around it. The autobelays were permanently removed soon thereafter.

I wouldn't dispute that tarps diminish the accident rate but I know they aren't 100% effective. The best setup I've seen is gates that protrude outwards from the wall and are right next to each other so that there is no physical way to climb up between them.

Some gyms have also decided that the presence of autobelays opens them to the "amusement park" insurance designation, which obviously nobody wants.

Pjm wrote: Climbing, indoor or out, is a very safe sport...

It could be if it weren't for all the people who do it.