1. Is recreating (on public land, spending one's private money and time) actually a privilege, as opposed to a legal right? In any case, what's the point of even arguing this and what should one be compelled to do in light of deciding that climbing (or roller hockey or video games) constitutes a privilege or not?
2. Whether or not climbers and climbing company employees indeed comply with erasing indigenous peoples' legacies, how does it further the flourishing of any currently living descendants of native americans to simply state which tribes occupied Yosemite circa 1840? Will it help any living person if Alex or Brad or Tommy start all their future climbing videos and articles with a PSA about who lived in Yosemite 170 years ago? Its an emergent form of social signaling that communicates "wokeness" to an ingroup of similarly inclined peers. Noting the one-time tribal occupants of a place does nothing that actually ameliorates the condition of current native american groups who suffer from the nation's worst rates of teen pregnancy, school dropout, substance abuse, and life expectancy. Here's something that might actually help. Fighting to relabel a famous (already completely public) trail system will not. This type of "Atonement as Activism" (credit John McWhorter) runs throughout her writing. Fifty years ago, a white person learning about the race problem came away asking “How can I help?” Today the same person too often comes away asking, “How can I show that I’m a moral person?”
Exactly, she can go on a “walk” for indigenous women while being a white girl to promote her shirts and blog. but her free time isn’t spent giving back to them and actually trespassing on our lands like Honnold. (see Buttermilk photos).
This is the same thing as demanding language be censored to cater to minorities. When minorities really have bigger fish to fry that you mentioned.
You are slipping, this should have been a separate thread!
But I don't understand why people are so attached to listening to it, anyway. Be honest, until you read about the controversy, how many times have you picked this song on your playlist, or Pandora, or whatever it is you use, because you love this song so much?
I have never voluntarily played this song, I honestly couldn't even tell what all the words were, or the scene, because I didn't grow up here, so until this became a controversy, I would have been able to pick out the melody, and the start of the phrase, "baby it's cold outside...", just like I could pick out jingle bells, and that's about it.
Having watched the clip now, I don't think it is particularly funny, or endearing, or cool. I don't think it should be "erased", forbidden, etc., but I also don't think that insisting on continued playing of it in public settings is justifiable. It was a "classic", but times change, and people change with time. It should become history, and listened/learned about in that context, rather than dragged out every year as happy warm fuzzy feel-good Christmas music. of course, if you wanted it played as background music at your home Christmas gathering... go right ahead.
1. Is recreating (on public land, spending one's private money and time) actually a privilege, as opposed to a legal right? In any case, what's the point of even arguing this and what should one be compelled to do in light of deciding that climbing (or roller hockey or video games) constitutes a privilege or not?
Rights are not inherent. They are, in fact, a privilege
Rights are not inherent. They are, in fact, a privilege
I guess we don’t hold these truths to be self-evident after all? Sick!
Did I mention I’m totally triggered by all this ladies having strong opinions different than mine talk? This seemed like the place to drop that truth bomb.
1. Is recreating (on public land, spending one's private money and time) actually a privilege, as opposed to a legal right? In any case, what's the point of even arguing this and what should one be compelled to do in light of deciding that climbing (or roller hockey or video games) constitutes a privilege or not?
2. Whether or not climbers and climbing company employees indeed comply with erasing indigenous peoples' legacies, how does it further the flourishing of any currently living descendants of native americans to simply state which tribes occupied Yosemite circa 1840? Will it help any living person if Alex or Brad or Tommy start all their future climbing videos and articles with a PSA about who lived in Yosemite 170 years ago? Its an emergent form of social signaling that communicates "wokeness" to an ingroup of similarly inclined peers. Noting the one-time tribal occupants of a place does nothing that actually ameliorates the condition of current native american groups who suffer from the nation's worst rates of teen pregnancy, school dropout, substance abuse, and life expectancy. Here's something that might actually help. Fighting to relabel a famous (already completely public) trail system will not. This type of "Atonement as Activism" (credit John McWhorter) runs throughout her writing. Fifty years ago, a white person learning about the race problem came away asking “How can I help?” Today the same person too often comes away asking, “How can I show that I’m a moral person?”
3. Are climbers insufficiently concerned about the victims of deaths concurrent with soloing, alpinism, and the climbing styles dominated by risk tolerant demographics of the highest testosterone persons? (childless males 15-45yrs old)? Should we pay more attention to the victims and potential victims of accidents and be less willing to glorify cutting edge ascents? In the future, will high altitude mountaineering or exploratory alpinism or free soloing be viewed with the same moral concerns we now apply to teenagers with a gun trying Russian roulette or playing chicken in their cars? This point is undertheorized and worth exploring.
Regarding the first point, the idea behind recognizing climbing as a privilege is tied to trying to expand that privilege to those that don't have it. It's difficult to get into the mindset that there are underprivileged people who would benefit from climbing without recognizing that not everyone has the opportunity. That's why all of this activism based around recognizing privilege exists. Ideally, propagating that notion will lead to the erosion of some of those barriers. You can see this happening in groups like Brothers of Climbing, etc.
With your second point I totally agree! I don't think virtue signaling "wokeness" helps anyone. But again, I don't think anyone will mobilize funds or bodies against the deplorable conditions that native people face without knowledge of said conditions. I don't think it's up to people like TC and Honnold to be spokespeople for that, but climbing is intertwined with native land perhaps more than most other sports due to much of our rec land existing on some of the last few parcels indigenous folks have left.
As to your last post, I think the problem of toxic masculinity and climbing is improperly tethered to soloing in her piece. I think it operates in more insidious ways that are tied with the sexual assault report that came out this year rather than just glorifying "dudes" in magazines.
Brad G
·
Dec 14, 2018
·
Unknown Hometown
· Joined Sep 2007
· Points: 2,610
It’s funny, I have two hardcore conservatives uncles who are so stoked on this article and have posted it on their Facebook pages with my name tagged to it.
Most comments suggest the whole thing is lunacy. Especially compared to lyrics in rap, that nobody is talking about. As if the PC/#metoo movement is very calculated. Hmm.
Then there is this one comment that mentions it's all put on by the Republicans and this to get people upset so they will move towards or further right. I found that funny, 'cause if that true, it's working. Similar to how this article moved a left leaning Brad G. towards the center. Hmm.
I had the same reaction last year that Brad is having now, but it was the stuff that happened at Evergreen that did it for me.
I think cheap climbing gyms in low income areas can go along way to introducing minotities to climbing. As we all know, this sport can improve the quality of life and it won’t be hard to give that quality to other people.
This link may have been posted already but I’ve only read about 20% of this thread.
The same way that liberals like me get stoked when Ingram or Hannity say such obviously stupid drivel, I would assume.
Tim Stich
·
Dec 14, 2018
·
Colorado Springs, Colorado
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 1,516
I'm going to take a stab and writing some book titles with free association to guide me:
Deconstructing Whiteness - A New Synthesis of Post-Modernist Feminism Indigenous History, a Lost Trove of Pristine and Pure Human Values Completely Destroyed by Colonial White Western European Powers I'm Really White and I'm So Sorry About It But Look What I Have To Say
You are slipping, this should have been a separate thread!
But I don't understand why people are so attached to listening to it, anyway. Be honest, until you read about the controversy, how many times have you picked this song on your playlist, or Pandora, or whatever it is you use, because you love this song so much?
I have never voluntarily played this song, I honestly couldn't even tell what all the words were, or the scene, because I didn't grow up here, so until this became a controversy, I would have been able to pick out the melody, and the start of the phrase, "baby it's cold outside...", just like I could pick out jingle bells, and that's about it.
Having watched the clip now, I don't think it is particularly funny, or endearing, or cool. I don't think it should be "erased", forbidden, etc., but I also don't think that insisting on continued playing of it in public settings is justifiable. It was a "classic", but times change, and people change with time. It should become history, and listened/learned about in that context, rather than dragged out every year as happy warm fuzzy feel-good Christmas music. of course, if you wanted it played as background music at your home Christmas gathering... go right ahead.
Brad G wrote: It’s funny, I have two hardcore conservatives uncles who are so stoked on this article and have posted it on their Facebook pages with my name tagged to it.
Because it makes us all feel good to beat up on strawmen. It's the intellectual equivalent to chasing climbing grades at the world's softest crag.
Try this, it's the rockies "5.9+" of epistemology.
I am hard-pressed to think of a time where there wasn't toxic masculinity...
You also must go back a whole lot of years to find original cultural beliefs that were't appropriated in some way or another. Edit: Or an isolated tribe type thing.
PS. The Memphis rock climbing gym video posted above is great! ANYONE can have a great time climbing. Teaches so many important values especially trusting others, and overcoming your fears. Good stuff.
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