C4 vs. DMM Dragons vs. Totem

Alex, no discussion/analysis is complete without Wild Country Friends, particularly as they are an improved version of the Standard C4 for the same or less price, and have a thumb-loop and extendable sling - and have been around longer than anybody.

Chris Owen wrote: Alex, no discussion/analysis is complete without Wild Country Friends, particularly as they are an improved version of the Standard C4 for the same or less price, and have a thumb-loop and extendable sling - and have been around longer than anybody.

Agreed! I sold most of all my BDs and replaced with WC

Briggs Lazalde wrote:

I can't tell if I'm reading this wrong but there is indeed a beautiful new purple #7 and green #8 on the market. I want them just for decorative purposes

Can you send me a link to look at? I can't find purple #7 C4 anywhere...

Ahh, you - and he - meant DMM dragons!!! I see now. I was looking at https://cam-parison.com/ and it doesn't have DMM dragons #7 and #8 !!! It needs to be updated with them!

Leliko Mana wrote:

Can you send me a link to look at? I can't find purple #7 C4 anywhere...

Ahh, you - and he - meant DMM dragons!!! I see now. I was looking at https://cam-parison.com/ and it doesn't have DMM dragons #7 and #8 !!! It needs to be updated with them!

Agreed - it also doesn't have the latest WC Friends.

My ideal beginner rack (hopefully I'll have it once Dragonflies hit the market in Spring 2019), it's obviously not much but it's a start and paired with my climbing partner's (whichever one's) C4s, TCUs, Friends and etc. it should be decent:

Leliko Mana wrote: My ideal beginner rack (hopefully I'll have it once Dragonflies hit the market in Spring 2019), it's obviously not much but it's a start and paired with my climbing partner's (whichever one's) C4s, TCUs, Friends and etc. it should be decent:

There's no reason to have both the yellow dragon and the orange totem for a single rack. You should pick one or the other. 

eli poss wrote: There's no reason to have both the yellow dragon and the orange totem for a single rack. You should pick one or the other

Ahhhhhh I was wondering about that... I already have a yellow Dragon so I guess I'll have to pass on Orange Totem at this point... oh well.........

Leliko Mana wrote:

Ahhhhhh I was wondering about that... I already have a yellow Dragon so I guess I'll have to pass on Orange Totem at this point... oh well.........

Also I would reccomend holding off on the Dragon fly #1 and #2 and possibly #3. The #3 is similar to a purple TCU size or green C3, which is the smallest cam I carry unless I'm aiding.

Honestly, beginners shouldn't be placing cams that small to begin with and that size is very rarely used on anything a beginner climber should be leading. Stuff that small has to be a perfect placement in bomber rock or it's shit. As a beginner, if you need those cams then you're already way in over your head.

im racking a single set of aliens with Dragons at .75,1,2,3 and a set of totems from black to orange (roughly .2 to 2) and then a blue C4 for the number 3 size.  What I like most about the mismatch is it gives me a little bit more choice in similar ranges as the totems are slightly bigger than the alien/bd/dragon sizes.  i know if my green dragon is just a bit too loose, my green totem is gonna be a perfect fit.  Or if my red totem is a bit over cammed, the red dragon is going to be bomb.

Jaren Watson wrote:

This seems like a generalization to me. Plenty of easy routes take small gear.

I think what Eli was trying to say is that if the ONLY thing you're finding to protect your life is, say, a .1 X4 placement, then maybe you should be backing off rather than continuing up. I agree with that, mostly. But I do carry .2 X4s on easy stuff and find them useful. If I could never carry anything smaller than a black Totem I think i'd be fine with that. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

I think what Eli was trying to say is that if the ONLY thing you're finding to protect your life is, say, a .1 X4 placement, then maybe you should be backing off rather than continuing up. I agree with that, mostly. But I do carry .2 X4s on easy stuff and find them useful. If I could never carry anything smaller than a black Totem I think i'd be fine with that. 

Correct. Routes that beginners should be climbing should be able to take larger gear than a purple TCU. The level of precision that is needed to make small cams work is unlikely to be found in a new trad climber.  

Well you guys just brought my cam numbers down... I guess I need to start climbing and then reassess everything myself based on what I'll need and what I won't... Wish I was as knowledgeable about it at Eli Poss's age as he is at the mature age of 22!!! :)

Jaren Watson wrote:

It’s possible that your version is what he was trying to say. 

What he actually said was “beginners shouldn’t place cams that small.”
I think beginners should place everything they can get their hands on, as often as possible, provided it’s safe to do so. It’s challenging to learn to place small gear if you don’t have the opportunity to place small gear.
Ultimately, I suspect we agree and are approaching the topic from converging, yet slightly different, perspectives.

I think you're right that we agree. To Eli's point, the OP was talking about some TINY cams that don't even yet exist in the market. The specs on the size 1 dragonfly show it smaller than a black alien or a  red .1 X4. I think a beginner placing cams that small is likely to believe that something is protecting him or her when, really they probably shouldn't rely on those cams. It would be kind of like a beginner placing microstoppers just because it's "good practice." Go ahead and practice that, I say, as long as you have a nice .5 camalot right below it. 

Well, IMHO beginners to traditional leading should develop fine passive nut-craft before they run into using Friends. Learn to understand that passive nuts are the backbone of a trad rack and should be the first type you go to for a placement. Nothing beats a bomber nut/hex placement - and I've followed lots of starting-out leads where super-solid nut placements have been sacrificed for a crappy Friend placement a few inches away.

That, too, Chris. Place nuts before finger-sized cams. 

Chris Owen wrote: Wild Country Friends - they are lighter than standard Camalots and Dragons.

I wouldn't trust anything from a country that gave the world the Land Rover and Lucas electronics ;)

eli poss wrote: There's no reason to have both the yellow dragon and the orange totem for a single rack. You should pick one or the other. 

Beginners like me do all kinds of silly things with gear:big and small.  Having the orange totem which is a bit smaller than the Yellow Dragon is may be overkill but for a beginner that redundancy is helpful especially after a beginner ( read me) overcams his #2 C4 and has to place an Orange Totem next to it so he can protect himself while he frees the stuck #2. 

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I wouldn't trust anything from a country that gave the world the Land Rover and Lucas electronics ;)

WILD COUNTRY FRIENDS!

This discussion has taken an interesting turn. Being an OP, I'll have to say that I do have a full set of nuts (I actually bought 13-piece set but the smallest three pieces are useless unless you aid-climb which I do not). I've played around placing them and like it a lot. Oh and I need to go order that famous pink tricam, it's so much fun to place!