C4 vs. DMM Dragons vs. Totem

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I have never understood “the beginner rack”.   Why would you buy sub par gear to start?   I’ve always told people to buy the best gear they can as it will usually last longer and work better in more situations.   Why handicap and frustrate yourself from the get go. 

Neither have I. You're gonna end up wanting the good shit eventually and finding a way to pay for it, ending up replacing your "beginner rack". And now you've spent an extra couple hundred dollars on gear that would rather not use.

When I was researching what to get when I was first starting to build my rack, multiple people told me to get the good, nice cams from the start. But I wanted to have a complete rack ASAP and was a poor high school student at the time, getting around $50 or $60 each paycheck every 2 weeks.

So I got a bunch of cheap old used cams and eventually got a set of C4s for Channukah. After using some DMM dragons I wished I'd gotten those instead of my C4s. After getting a chance to use some totems, I really wished I'd just gotten those from the start and saved myself around $125 on old cams and webbing/cord to resling them.

I learned my lesson the hard way, and I'm actually lucky I didn't waste more money on cams that now rot in the closet. Learn from my mistake. 

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I have never understood “the beginner rack”.   Why would you buy sub par gear to start?   I’ve always told people to buy the best gear they can as it will usually last longer and work better in more situations.   Why handicap and frustrate yourself from the get go. 

Dude, I'm not sending people out there with Hexes FFS, just saying in the red/orange size on up I'd rather have a sweet #2 UL C4 than the Totem. UL C4 #2's and #3's are as good as it gets, imo.

Someone CA based like the OP just needs to learn how to place cams in textbook parallel placements. I think rather than dwelling on flared placements or taking falls on horizontally placed cams they should master a simpler tool that handles better in the bigger sizes. And the weight savings are significant. Ultra-light C4's are not a "beginner rack" by any means and a little stiffer stem makes placing easier.

As well (not a consideration for the OP apparently) buying a pile of used C4s will get more people up more climbs sooner than spending so much more on Totems. I don't care what young master eli says, he got out there sooner with a franken-rack and that is priceless, imo.

I dunno, maybe I just feel all "curmudgeonly" that someone with no experience with cams is gonna sport a $1000 rack of cams before they even know how to place one. Just being honest.

Learn on used C4's and take it from there until you know enough to know what you want is the advice I always give.

eli poss wrote:
I learned my lesson the hard way, and I'm actually lucky I didn't waste more money on cams that now rot in the closet. Learn from my mistake. 

Don't let gear rot in your closet. Somewhere, someone wants that gear and will use it.

I actually think the ritual of buying and selling gear to curate the perfect rack (for me) has been a great education. I tend to only buy on sale (or used) so buying something, trying it, and moving on actually has very little marginal cost. Well, except for that set of hexes I bought at full retail many years ago because they were cheap. 

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Someone CA based like the OP just needs to learn how to place cams in textbook parallel placements. I think rather than dwelling on flared placements or taking falls on horizontally placed cams they should master a simpler tool that handles better in the bigger sizes. And the weight savings are significant. Ultra-light C4's are not a "beginner rack" by any means and a little stiffer stem makes placing easier.

I dunno, maybe I just feel all "curmudgeonly" that someone with no experience with cams is gonna sport a $1000 rack of cams before they even know how to place one. Just being honest.

Learn on used C4's and take it from there until you know enough to know what you want is the advice I always give.

I'm the OP and I'm reading all the posts closely and am very thankful for every opinion because they come from experienced people, those who didn't have the opportunity to sport a $1000 rack of cams before they even knew how to place one :):):):):):):) I just secretly wish I grew up in the USA, particularly in CA, and started climbing at a younger age like the majority of you did but I'm eternally thankful for finding the sport I love at age 40 (not many women 40+ go on multi-pitch routes even around here, by the way, and certainly not many women 40+ have a dream to climb El Cap one day!). So you have to forgive me if I want to buy the best gear possible as I probably won't be climbing 30-40 more years in my life, realistically speaking (even though my sincere wish is to die climbing in Yosemite at the age of 80 - but whether or not I should subject other folks to the horror of witnessing death of an 80-year-old woman climbing in Yosemite is completely another issue).

Sorry, I digress. I did order 2 Totems from campsaver website yesterday which now brings my "rack" to total of 5 cams (totems and DMM Dragons) in addition to nuts and quickdraws and alpine draws. It's ridiculously small rack I know. But I'll be climbing with people who have other cams (C4s, Aliens, and Friends) and the idea is to see which one I would like to place. I will have opportunity to try their gear and they will try mine so it's a win-win scenario. I'm waiting for updated C4s in January to give them a consideration too. And then - as long as I stay pain-free - sky is the limit!

I was talking to another climber from this forum yesterday who has enormous rack, including 3 sets of totems. He encouraged me to get Totems in all sizes, especially orange and red that some people dislike, saying he consistently uses them around where he climbs in California. Just saying.

Have a nice day everyone and go climb this weekend! :)

Señor Arroz wrote:

Don't let gear rot in your closet. Somewhere, someone wants that gear and will use it.

I actually think the ritual of buying and selling gear to curate the perfect rack (for me) has been a great education. I tend to only buy on sale (or used) so buying something, trying it, and moving on actually has very little marginal cost. Well, except for that set of hexes I bought at full retail many years ago because they were cheap. 

Well some of it I want to keep on the rare occasion that I need doubles and my partner doesn't have a rack or on the even more rare occasion that I go to the creek. The rest of it, I've tried to sell but without success. 

Leliko Mana wrote:

I'm the OP and I'm reading all the posts closely and am very thankful for every opinion because they come from experienced people, those who didn't have the opportunity to sport a $1000 rack of cams before they even knew how to place one :):):):):):):) I just secretly wish I grew up in the USA, particularly in CA, and started climbing at a younger age like the majority of you did but I'm eternally thankful for finding the sport I love at age 40 (not many women 40+ go on multi-pitch routes even around here, by the way, and certainly not many women 40+ have a dream to climb El Cap one day!). So you have to forgive me if I want to buy the best gear possible as I probably won't be climbing 30-40 more years in my life, realistically speaking (even though my sincere wish is to die climbing in Yosemite at the age of 80 - but whether or not I should subject other folks to the horror of witnessing death of an 80-year-old woman climbing in Yosemite is completely another issue).

Sorry, I digress. I did order 2 Totems from campsaver website yesterday which now brings my "rack" to total of 5 cams (totems and DMM Dragons) in addition to nuts and quickdraws and alpine draws. It's ridiculously small rack I know. But I'll be climbing with people who have other cams (C4s, Aliens, and Friends) and the idea is to see which one I would like to place. I will have opportunity to try their gear and they will try mine so it's a win-win scenario. I'm waiting for updated C4s in January to give them a consideration too. And then - as long as I stay pain-free - sky is the limit!

I was talking to another climber from this forum yesterday who has enormous rack, including 3 sets of totems. He encouraged me to get Totems in all sizes, especially orange and red that some people dislike, saying he consistently uses them around where he climbs in California. Just saying.

Have a nice day everyone and go climb this weekend! :)

Awesome. Be sure to hit those cracks at Planet Granite etc in the Presidio...you'd be placing #2 C4's everywhere too....keep in mind, not every experienced climber is really able to put themselves back into newbie shoes and know what might be best. I think you will understand the handling issues when you get some experience with both. lol triples on totes is not an enormous rack, that's just normal for Yose.

Yet, go forth and climb.

When you are over 50 join the "New and Experienced Climbers over 50 thread" (though we may give a special exception sooner).

YGD™ is the traditional send off.

ps BD cams 25% off: blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

bkozak wrote: http://www.davidallfrey.com/www.davidallfrey.com/vidallfrey.com/2011/09/totem-cams-aid-review.html

Dave Allfrey has a good review of the Totems here.

...but it’s almost a 100% aid review.  And almost every picture is of a pin-scar placement.  

Leliko Mana wrote: Thanks again, everyone!!! To keep the momentum going:

1) I just ordered DMM Dragons sizes 4 and 5 (comparable to C4 sizes 2 and 3).
2) I also chatted with Backcountry rep this morning and he says they will have all totems in stock later this week (oops, I accidentally spilled the beans!). He took my phone number and email to let me know once they get them as I'm planning to order several Totems, ESPECIALLY THE BLACK AND BLUE. Thinking to get the whole rack minus the largest (orange) one. And I already have green! Yes, it will (almost) break my bank but it needs to be done!
3) Besides, I'll look into ordering C4 rack once new C4s come out in January 2019.

I think I took all the suggestions into consideration, didn't I? :)

The current friends are better pretty much all around compared to the C4s, they're lighter than the ones coming out in 2019

Mark Paulson wrote:

...but it’s almost a 100% aid review.  And almost every picture is of a pin-scar placement.  

How do you protect free climbs that are heavily pin scarred?   Dave’s review was extremely useful in regards to free climbing.  When free climbing in Yosemite or any other area that is pins scarred the Totems rule the day.   Why not have a piece of gear that protects off set cracks and parallel cracks equally well?

Regarding

... the flexible sling makes them almost impervious to walking... it's pretty damn hard to get a totem stuck.

... Never had an issue getting them out, even when overcammed.

Just want to mention I love the 0.3 Blue Totem, but the flexibility of the stem is exactly a reason why it gets stuck sometimes. When the head is hella-wedged in there, without the rigidness of a stem, it can be hard to get leverage to get the thing out of there. 

michael s... wrote: Regarding

Just want to mention I love the 0.3 Blue Totem, but the flexibility of the stem is exactly a reason why it gets stuck sometimes. When the head is hella-wedged in there, without the rigidness of a stem, it can be hard to get leverage to get the thing out of there. 

I own a blue totem and a green totem basic and an X4 .3. I wouldn't say the Totem is particularly more flexible than either of those. 

 I wouldn't say the Totem is particularly more flexible than either of those.

That's fair. I'm just saying you can definitely get a totem pretty stuck. I've never had to leave one, but I've definitely removed them where the flexibility of the whole thing (which is good for holding force I imagine) made it harder to get out than if it was more rigid, like on a C4. 

michael s... wrote: Regarding

Just want to mention I love the 0.3 Blue Totem, but the flexibility of the stem is exactly a reason why it gets stuck sometimes. When the head is hella-wedged in there, without the rigidness of a stem, it can be hard to get leverage to get the thing out of there. 

There is no 0.3 Blue Totem...the Blue Totem is 0.65.  If you speaking about the Blue Totem Basic, you may not be referring to the same thing as quoted in that comment.

Xam wrote:

There is no 0.3 Blue Totem...the Blue Totem is 0.65.  If you speaking about the Blue Totem Basic, you may not be referring to the same thing as quoted in that comment.

The .65 totem matches the size of the .3 X4 or C4 BD cams. That's what he means. 

Wild Country Friends - they are lighter than standard Camalots and Dragons.

You should get black and blue totems, aliens from green to red, and camalots from green  and up.  

Jared Chrysostom wrote:

Being a newer trad climber myself, I am pretty sure I climb safer with 7 Dragons than I would have with 3 Totems. 

100% agree. 7 pieces is better than 3 pieces. But 7 totems is better than any 7 others pieces. A rack of 12 nuts is probably safer than 3 totem or 7 Dragons but I'll choose the 3 totem. 

My rack is all mixed up. I have mostly BDs, wild country friends, Trango flexcams, and a metolius mastercam that makes up a full rack with a few doubles and triples. I’ve loved this rack for a long time and I never really have come up in an issue with the sizing differences. If money isn’t an issue, go with totems or c4s. I find the c4s to be just a great standard of an easy to use cam.

You've definitely heard enough opinions, but I'll add mine too, just because it's fun to talk about gear! Hahaha :D

TL;DR - just see the bold text then go climbing :D

Bottom line is that you'll be happy with any of the above options. Learn to place gear well and you'll be fine. I've taken a ton of falls on gear and the only time anything pulled out of the wall was when I placed in between a loose block. I recognized it, but was pumped and just didn't remove it - acknowledging that it wouldn't hold.

Black Diamond C4s:
Pros: They've been around for a while! They're the standard, they are extremely reliable, they are easy to find,. Most gear beta uses these as the gear sizes so it makes it easy to know what gear to bring. The thumb loop makes them a little easier to handle and slightly better for aid.
Cons: They've been around for a while! I don't really consider BD to be very innovative and other, newer companies have been working to revolutionize the cam while BD just keeps plugging along - sticking to the same gear they have, just refining it slightly (typically by just removing a little weight here and there).

BD Ultralights:
Pros: Uhh, they're ultralight?
Cons: This is probably on me, but I just don't want to spend a ton of money on something that I'm not sure I can use 8-10 years down the road, you know? BD can't just replace the dynema sling either, so once you determine that the dyneema is too old and sketch, you just have to buy another...

DMM Dragon2:
Pros: Same color and size pattern as C4s, same weight too. I think they tend to "stay" better when I place them, they walk a little less than c4s, and that just inspires a little more confidence. They have an extendable sling on them already so you can very easily extend your cam! This is very helpful! Especially in larger sizes where I tend to place the gear a little deeper and it just seems that I usually need to extend the cam more often. They look dang good, too.
Cons: Some people don't like the lack of a thumb loop. I can't say that I actually have ever had trouble placing the cam though. Honestly, I love dragons!

Metolius Mastercams:
Pros: Their new ultralight cams are REALLY LIGHT! You really don't even notice them in your pack on approaches. They are also extrememly solid and reliable. Their main competitor for years has been some version of the old aliens, but all I hear about those is how often they break and don't work. Maybe this is less of a problem than I hear, but it seems like Metolius's gear has been extremely high-quality, light and cost less.
Cons: I don't really have any complaints with Mastercams. Similar to BD, they aren't anything "revolutionary" other than they are so light!

Totems:
Pros: This is the first innovation to cams that I would consider "revolutionary" - you load the lobe directly instead of having your weight travel through a stem then out to the axle and then the lobe. This really does make the placement more solid! 95% of the time, this really doesn't matter!!! Really, this isn't a matter of life and death - Like I said above in the "Bottom Line" paragraph (which should probably be at the bottom?), you really shouldn't need to worry about this, just focus on learning to place the cam well and avoiding flaring or uneven placements. That said, these cams really do inspire a ton of confidence because you place them and they just stay put! They really don't walk much. For the most part you place these in the rock and you can rely on them staying in their same position while you climb above. That can really calms you nerves sometimes. If you get in to aid climbing then these are absolute necessities. If you get into free climbing on old aid routes (like a lot of Yosemite and Zion climbs) where a lot of the placements are flaring, then these can also be absolute necessities. They are so solid in places that you would typically want an offset cam. But, again, in 95% of your typical crack climbing, this doesn't matter and I still was able to do a handful of Zion aid routes without any totems or offset cams without anything blowing - it was fine (although I was a bit more freaked out). Totems are also about the same weight as dragons and C4s.
Cons: Mostly just price and availability. That's really about it. I love Totems!

My Ideal rack (given that I do a decent bit of big-walling, aid climbing, free climbing, and some alpine rock, in sandstone, granite, quartzite - basically a good mix):
Smaller Cams (your green totem and smaller):
1 set of ultralight mastercams (weight savings make these an obvious choice)
1 set of totems (black-green. I wouldn't mind the Red and Orange ones, but they just aren't necessary and I'm in college! $$)

Larger Cams:
2 sets of Dragon2 cams to the grey (DMM's #6/BD's #4) and 1 large purple #7. The only real disadvantage that I've found for Dragons is that on aid you want a higher clip-in point, but when the crack is big enough for a red, yellow, or bigger dragon, then I usually find myself able to free climb and not worry as much about how high I can clip in.

Then you'll ideally probably want a 3rd set in the middle sizes (green, red, yellow, blue).

Alex Temus wrote: You've definitely heard enough opinions, but I'll add mine too, just because it's fun to talk about gear! Hahaha :D

Larger Cams:
2 sets of Dragon2 cams to the grey (DMM's #6/BD's #4) and 1 large purple #7. 

Yes, Alex, it's too fun to talk about gear! I totally agree! But there is no large purple #7. There is no #7 at all :):):) You meant #5 I know :):):)

Just when I was reading your informative message (and you're still in college so a baby haha!), my mail came and with it came two more totems I recently ordered from Campsaver: blue and purple. Both my favorite colors :) Next I'll be ordering from Marco, I'm just waiting for the opportunity to first get outside and use whatever I've accumulated so far :)

Thanks again for your extensive response! And for everyone's contribution to this discussion, really! It's indeed fun to talk about gear :):):)