Do Gunks grades level out (with other areas) above 5.8?

Entering my third year trad leading and working my way thru the 8s.  Was able to jump on Ants Line over the weekend (may be my new favorite pitch anywhere) and Ive noticed going from 6, to 7, to 8 was much easier for me than 4, to 5, to 6.  Now I recognize lack of trust in the gear the first two years was severely holding me back, and as my recognition of good rock/gear has progressed so has my willingness to climb harder above my gear, but in my (limited) experience at the grades there doesn't seem to be as much of a jump from 8 to 9 as there was from 5 to 6.

is this subjective or does anyone have any thoughts about the phenomena?

Ive also heard that 10s are the best grades in the Trapps and I assume most of those were put up after the expansion of the YDS, so some grade creep makes sense to me at those grades.

any insight is welcome.  Im hoping your responses are going to give me the confidence to find my actual physical trad climbing limit and have it be equal to my mental limit....

To me, yes. 5.10 and up there generally feels on par with other older trad climbing areas in the rest of the country. Though the style is so unique that it is hard to compare to the similarly aged areas in the west.

As you said, perhaps just a product of the timeline. Not sure myself.

Yes, 5.10 is a wonderful grade there.

Yes, No, Maybe? I think the answer to this question depends on the climb... There are still classic sandbags through all of the grades at the gunks, lying in wait. I personally think MOST of the Gunks sandbagging talk doesn't apply to Gunks climbers, but does apply to climbers outside of the Gunks... Honestly the style is rather unique, the gear is good but rather different than similarly rated climbs on sandstone or granite, and the roofs tend to be more reliably do-able thanks to hidden (or not so hidden) "jugs" up above, which are not so reliably there on roofs in other areas.

So while the area is stiff I think that reputation is a bit over-sold, especially in the era of gym climbing, which trains you pretty well for some of the steep jug hauling roof pulling goodness of the Gunks... Also the rock is slick and grippy on features that I think are hard to read and differentiate if you are used to climbing granite or sandstone (mostly a texture/looks/features difference).

B K wrote: I would say that the jump from 5.8-5.9 is the most significant of any in the Gunks (I have not led harder than 10d there, FWIW), and I would also suggest that your rapid progression through the 5.7ish routes is more related to experience than a leveling out of grades, though it may be some combination of the two. Keep in mind that there will always be outliers in terms of difficulty within each grade.  Some will feel easy for the grade, some harder.  Climbing above gear is also a factor in the Gunks.  Routes like Ant's Line sew up really well, so the scare factor is not as high as something like MF, though I would say MF is marginally physically harder than Ant's....

FWIW I have been finding 5.8 to 5.9 to be a hard transition because on many of the routes the gear gets small and your doing moves over small gear. You also start getting some runout climbing at the 5.7 and lower grades which can  be spooky for a new 5.9 leader

I have 0 Gunks knowledge, but I've thought the same about other areas - that grades feel more consistent once you get into the 10s.  Maybe for the people who put up routes 5.10 is hard enough that they can actually judge the grade accurately.  Or maybe 5.10 is simply where you stop seeing 1960s grades.

It's more or less consistent with other areas. There are routes that are harder or easier than their grade everywhere, but on average grades feel pretty much the same. I think the gear/mental aspect does make a difference though - I'm much more willing to try a route at my limit in a sport area than when I'm 15 feet above a small piece in the gunks.

Christopher Woodall wrote
So while the area is stiff I think that reputation is a bit over-sold, especially in the era of gym climbing, which trains you pretty well for some of the steep jug hauling roof pulling goodness of the Gunks... Also the rock is slick and grippy on features that I think are hard to read and differentiate if you are used to climbing granite or sandstone (mostly a texture/looks/features difference).

yeah, I'm not so sure.  I was just breaking into 7s this spring.  I took a 6wk trip from NJ or Oregon and back and was getting on low 10s at City of Rocks, 8/9s in Rushmore Needles, and most places felt easily 2+ grades softer. and don't even get me started about the sport climbing grades....my god, Maple and Ten Sleep were absurdly easy (but AWESOME climbing).  Made me feel like a super man!!

I made a joke to my partner, you know the book 'How to be a 5.12 climber'?  Chapter 1 should be: Move to Ten Sleep.

I thought Ants Line was 5.9, not 5.8...has it been downgraded?  In any event, I'd think the "inexperience placing gear" made the transition from, say, 5.5's to 5.6's, seem harder than the upper grades. Plus, don't forget your inexperience at leading in general, you're probably MUCH more comfortable in the lead now than 3 years ago. When you feel comfortable it's a lot easier for your mind and body to relax, and thus easier to "figure out" the moves.
    Personally, I think the 5.8 to 5.9 transition at "old school" areas like the Gunks, Adirondacks, New Hampshire Trad ares's, Tahquiz, etc can be quite difficult, since so many of the 5.9's are "old school" that it helps to know something about the date of the FA, and maybe even the first ascentionist(s) themselves.

Robert Hall wrote: I thought Ants Line was 5.9, not 5.8...has it been downgraded?  In any event, I'd think the "inexperience placing gear" made the transition from, say, 5.5's to 5.6's, seem harder than the upper grades. Plus, don't forget your inexperience at leading in general, you're probably MUCH more comfortable in the lead now than 3 years ago. When you feel comfortable it's a lot easier for your mind and body to relax, and thus easier to "figure out" the moves.
    Personally, I think the 5.8 to 5.9 transition at "old school" areas like the Gunks, Adirondacks, New Hampshire Trad ares's, Tahquiz, etc can be quite difficult, since so many of the 5.9's are "old school" that it helps to know something about the date of the FA, and maybe even the first ascentionist(s) themselves.

no its still a 9. it was just open and I watched a dude put like 16 pieces in before us.

JRZane wrote
I made a joke to my partner, you know the book 'How to be a 5.12 climber'?  Chapter 1 should be: Move to Ten Sleep.

Vacation grades are a thing

Gunks grades have been extensively revisited with each successive wave of guidebooks, and nowadays the grades are very consistent and not out of line with other trad areas in my experience. There are still some climbs at every grade that people grumble about, but I think those people are usually wrong.

The 5.10 grade is a lot like the others, especially the 10d’s, which regularly draw (wrong) complaints that they would be 5.11’s in other areas. 

Gunks grades are fair for the style of climbing. They are not sandbagged. If you feel that they are sandbagged then you missed a hold or a move. 

JRZane wrote:
I made a joke to my partner, you know the book 'How to be a 5.12 climber'?  Chapter 1 should be: Move to Ten Sleep.

Which 12s at Tensleep felt easy to you?

Dave Holliday wrote:

Which 12s at Tensleep felt easy to you?

easy? none of them. but I'm not a 5.12 climber, which was my point. prior to going to Ten Sleep, my hardest send anywhere, anytime in my life was a 10b. In TS I was routinely getting up 11a and even one 11d.  I certainly do not consider myself a 5.11 climber.

After Chapter 1 was accomplished and I moved to TS, Im sure Id have to read Chapter 2 of the book in order to accomplish the goal.

I think Gunks 5.10s are about on par with other areas if you are comfortable on roofs and overhangs and most sport climbers are used to that sort of thing.  There are 10s at the Gunks that you can break into with bomber gear at your face when pulling the crux.  

Brian wrote: I think Gunks 5.10s are about on par with other areas if you are comfortable on roofs and overhangs and most sport climbers are used to that sort of thing.  There are 10s at the Gunks that you can break into with bomber gear at your face when pulling the crux.  

willing to offer a couple of those?  I usually do extensive research on  route when I'm trying to break into the grade.  Id love some insight about well protected 10s (and even 8s and 9s for that matter).

JRZane wrote:

willing to offer a couple of those?  I usually do extensive research on  route when I'm trying to break into the grade.  Id love some insight about well protected 10s (and even 8s and 9s for that matter).

Dat Mantel, Dis Mantel, City Streets, Beetle Brow Bulge.  Like most climbs at the Gunks how easy they are depends on how tall you are.  If you can reach that next horizontal then it may feel easy and if you can't it will feel hard.  

i think the whole "gunks grades are so so stiff" thing is pretty overblown.  they seem pretty average.  in some cases (crack climbing in particular) the grades are actually somewhat soft compared to other areas.

I remember following Teeny Face (5.10a) and thought it was really hard - I had some desperate grabs and came very close to coming off a few times. I'm usually pretty confident and relaxed leading above that grade on TR/Sport in other areas at the time. That scared me from trying to lead any other Gunks 10s yet... just my humble opinion

Dave Holliday wrote:

Which 12s at Tensleep felt easy to you?

Any of them if you moved there and could climb outside every day.

Daniel Kaye wrote: I remember following Teeny Face (5.10a) and thought it was really hard - I had some desperate grabs and came very close to coming off a few times. I'm usually pretty confident and relaxed leading above that grade on TR/Sport in other areas at the time. That scared me from trying to lead any other Gunks 10s yet... just my humble opinion

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