Is the overhand/EDK now unsafe for joining ropes?

Tradiban wrote:

Speed is a detriment to safety. If you are thinking more about speed you are also more likely to screw it up.

Ever heard of "speed is safety". I think it's probably safer for me to climb faster than to climb slow and get caught in afternoon thunderstorms, have to descend in the dark, run out of water/food, etc. 

It’s clear to me, from this thread at least, that the only solution is to freebase - rappelling with ropes is just too dangerous

RIP Dean

At least this is not the beginner forum.  Not long ago, I had a partner who regretted listening to a “veteran” where by my partner - then a newbie -  now regrets having cut the belay loop off his harness.

Ryan Maitland wrote: It’s clear to me, from this thread at least, that the only solution is to freebase - rappelling with ropes is just too dangerous

RIP Dean

I thought "freebasing" was the old term for smoking crack? I read about that.

Bill Lawry wrote: At least this is not the beginner forum.  Not long ago, I had a partner who regretted listening to a “veteran” where by my partner - then a newbie -  now regrets having cut the belay loop off his harness.

Lol. Hilarious. I STILL hear that belay loop crap getting tossed around. 

Edit:
Wow. Someone flagged my last comment. You just can't handle the truth can you?

To reiterate, you dont save any significant time with the edk.

The rewoven figure 8 always works regardless of your ropes and the fig 8 is a knot you (should) know is 100% perfect from 30ft away. Use it.

Tradiban wrote:

Lol. Hilarious. I STILL hear that belay loop crap getting tossed around. 

Edit:
Wow. Someone flagged my last comment. You just can't handle the truth can you?

To reiterate, you dont save any significant time with the edk.

The rewoven figure 8 always works regardless of your ropes and the fig 8 is a knot you (should) know is 100% perfect from 30ft away. Use it.

Why are you getting all butthurt over the edk? In some terrain, an edk is far less likely to get stuck in an edge or something than the flemish bend you're referring to. 

eli poss wrote:

Why are you getting all butthurt over the edk? In some terrain, an edk is far less likely to get stuck in an edge or something than the flemish bend you're referring to. 

Lol, one knot or another getting stuck more often is a myth told to you by the climbing illumnati to make you believe in their superiority. Spit out the kool-aid dude.

It seems to be true that the EDK is less likely to completely hang up, but thinking about the EDK in terms of ropes getting stuck or not misses another advantage, which is that the rope pulls more easily with an EDK even when it isn't actually getting stuck.  These claims are the results of tests conducted by David Drohan for the Bushwalkers Wilderness Rescue (Australia).  The paper is long, but here are some  quotes---I bolded the primary conclusion.  See http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/52/PreferredKnots.pdf .

The results are significant because there is no way to quantify "liklihood of getting stuck," but it is possible to make measurements of pull-resistance.  The EDK is superior enough in this regard that is reasonable to assume it will get stuck less often.

An interesting observation is that the way the tails face influences the pulldown resistance.

the Double Fisherman’s Knot did get caught on all hard edges especially the reverse edge.. This is due to the cylindrical shape of the knot where the knot jams against the hard edges. This knot required significantly more force (nearly 40kg) than the other knots to move over a 90 degree reverse edge.  the Rethreaded Figure 8 Knot required slightly more load than the Double Fisherman’s Knot to move over the edge. This may be due to the Rethreaded Figure 8 Knot jamming more in the natural groove than the Double Fisherman’s knot. However the Double Fisherman’s Knot did jam  and needed far greater force to move over all the simulated edges than the Rethreaded Figure 8 Knot. Based on this evidence, further rope pull down tests on the Double Fisherman’s Knot were discontinued.

Two series of rope pull down tests were conducted on the Rethreaded Figure Eight Knot (Figure 9) and the Overhand knot...the Overhand Knot required less force than the Rethreaded Figure Eight Knot on all the edges tested. In all cases the Overhand Knot required about 50% less force to pull down over the edge.  As a result of this test the Rethreaded Figure Eight Knot was deleted from further pull down tests.

Note: this has been edited since Tradiban quoted it, which happened during the editing...

double fishermans is almost like throwing out a grappeling hook. all that aside  the most critical aspect of the EDK is how easy it is to tie and untie on big ice routes in harsh conditions.,loseing light fast, can hardly feel you fingers, now is most certainly Not the time or place to fiddlefck around with a complicated knott. the pure simplicity of the EDK has my vote every time in these circumstances.

rgold wrote: It is true that the EDK is less likely to completely hang up, but thinking about the EDK in terms of ropes getting stuck or not misses another advantage, which is that the rope pulls more easily with an EDK even when it isn't actually getting stuck.  These claims are the results of tests conducted by David Drohan for the Bushwalkers Wilderness Rescue (Australia).  The paper is long, but here are some  quotes---I bolded the primary conclusion.  See http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/52/PreferredKnots.pdf .

An interesting observation is that the way the tails face influences the pulldown resistance.

the Double Fisherman’s Knot did get caught on all hard edges especially the reverse edge.. This is due to the cylindrical shape of the knot where the knot jams against the hard edges. This knot required significantly more force (nearly 40kg) than the other knots to move over a 90 degree reverse edge.  the Rethreaded Figure 8 Knot required slightly more load than the Double Fisherman’s Knot to move over the edge. This may be due to the Rethreaded Figure 8 Knot jamming more in the natural groove than the Double Fisherman’s knot. However the Double Fisherman’s Knot did jam  and needed far greater force to move over all the simulated edges than the Rethreaded Figure 8 Knot. Based on this evidence, further rope pull down tests on the Double Fisherman’s Knot were discontinued.

Two series of rope pull down tests were conducted on the Rethreaded Figure Eight Knot (Figure 9) and the Overhand knot...the Overhand Knot required less force than the Rethreaded Figure Eight Knot on all the edges tested. In all cases the Overhand Knot required about 50% less force to pull down over the edge.  As a result of this test the Rethreaded Figure Eight Knot was deleted from further pull down tests.

Lol, what kind of whack job setup did these guys have?!?! Fake news.

Drohan tested pull-down resistance on a featured cliff face, tested it on concrete edges, found that the readings they were getting were close, and concluded that the concrete edges were a good model for cliffside results.

wes calkins wrote:

So shave your face with some mace in the dark....

savin' all your food stamps and burnin' down the trailer park. Yo, cut it. 

Tradiban wrote:

Lol, what kind of whack job setup did these guys have?!?! Fake news.

Yeah this. Can anyone even prove this Drohan fellow even exists?

rgold wrote: Drohan tested pull-down resistance on a featured cliff face, tested it on concrete edges, found that the readings they were getting were close, and concluded that the concrete edges were a good model for cliffside results.

Concrete edges are a good model for cliffside results?!? (Facepalm)

Andy Hansen wrote:

savin' all your food stamps and burnin' down the trailer park. Yo, cut it. 

Sooooyyyy uuunnn perdedor....

Tradiban wrote:

Lol, what kind of whack job setup did these guys have?!?! Fake news.

-3/10

Thank you, Richard. I had not seen those testing results.  I will forward to some climb partners.

For the record, a couple in this are doing a disservice to MP users.  Seems a long time out is in order.

I use EDK but as suggested by a guide friend, if you feel the need for backup, just do a double fisherman's on one end after EDK.  It still runs flat but a tag line won't slip or roll this way.  Also still easy to untie

Tradiban wrote:

To reiterate, you dont save any significant time with the edk.

To reiterate, you don't use the EDK to save time.
You still refuse to understand its use.