Sexual harassment and climbing

So this entire set of data is based on only about 1750 per gender. So you are giving percent based off only 1750 responses (basing this on US only ignoring people in other countries)? Can you say pointless data. How many climbers exist and you are using like a 0.0001% sample size compared to the number of climbers haha.

Tom Hickmann wrote: I was hesitant to comment here about the issue of SASH because It appears there are nothing but guys trying defend some level of unacceptable behavior. Sorry guys, you don't get to define SASH. Its not you (typically) on the receiving end of it. If you have a woman close to you in your life (wife, mom, sister, daughter), sit down with them and ask them how they perceive cat calling. I don't care how attractive you are as a guy, the fact is most women don't feel the need to have you yell at them like a damn animal. Its colossally arrogant of any guy to cat call a woman, and most women feel threatened by it, not complemented by it. So many of the comments here are loaded with arrogance thinking if their attractive it is some how acceptable. Its not, it never has been, never will be. If your that guy, your an idiot and I can only hope you will always be surrounded by guys who know better and call you out on it for being a fool. Women are not objects to be admired, they are human beings like you, where there skills are to be admired along with their accomplishments. Other than that, most women don't need your approval at all, much less being touched by you, or being howeled out. Treat women like people and the SHSA problem that is systemic in our society will begin to diminish.

In a hypothetical situation, if a woman is continually smiling at you, and you are in a group of people, but the other members of the group keep giving the two of you disapproving looks every time you share a smile (and look to be elevating the disapproving looks to actually trying to separate the two of you somehow, anyhow), would blatantly hitting on the woman in front of the group perhaps account for a large number of the survey respondents who reported some degree of 'catcalling', as well as those who find 'catcalling' some kind of extreme form of SHSA?  I'm asking for a friend...

The charts on the top of page 8 show that 16% of men and 47% of women have "Experienced SHSA Defined Behaviors During Climbing Activities"

The chart directly below, "Experienced Specific SHSA Types,"  show much higher numbers for both genders and very different ratios between men/women.

How does that work?

Tom Hickmann wrote: Sorry guys, you don't get to define SASH. 

The lead author of the study is a male.

JNE wrote:

In a hypothetical situation, if a woman is continually smiling at you, and you are in a group of people, but the other members of the group keep giving the two of you disapproving looks every time you share a smile (and look to be elevating the disapproving looks to actually trying to separate the two of you somehow, anyhow), would blatantly hitting on the woman in front of the group perhaps account for a large number of the survey respondents who reported some degree of 'catcalling', as well as those who find 'catcalling' some kind of extreme form of SHSA?  I'm asking for a friend...

Not sure I am the person that should answer that. As a general rule if someone smiles at ne in a group, or alone, I say hello. I don't perceive it as an invitation for more. If their friends feel threatened by my actions I would argue that I need to change my behavior. "Blatantly" hitting on them seems like a for sure way to get rejected. 

Briggs Lazalde wrote:

by default there was a 50/50 chance of the author being a male so we shouldn't be surprised. Now if it was a genderless android from another planet we should worry

The author of the study was not chosen at random.  

Mae Rae wrote:

The lead author of the study is a male.

It was co authored by a male and female. The graphs you point to our consistent. Add up men and women (48% + 16% = 64%) hence the total of specific types of SHSA. Stop looking for ways to disprove the study and instead look for ways to improve the environment regardless of the numbers. It should not happen.

Tom Hickmann wrote:

Not sure I am the person that should answer that. As a general rule if someone smiles at ne in a group, or alone, I say hello. I don't perceive it as an invitation for more. If their friends feel threatened by my actions I would argue that I need to change my behavior. "Blatantly" hitting on them seems like a for sure way to get rejected. 

It is my perception that your behavior is threatening.

Tom Hickmann wrote:

Stop looking for ways to disprove the study and instead look for ways to improve the environment regardless of the numbers. It should not happen.

That's the accusation that is being repeated over and over: "Anyone who questions the numbers is indifferent to to problem."

The really troubling aspect of these twisted arguments is that people use them as a platform to claim innocence.  "Hey look at me, I'm showing concern, I'm one of the good guys!"

Everyone knows that some of the worst perpetrators of sexual wrongs are guys claiming to be sensitive and concerned.  It is utterly laughable that these threads and conversations are dominated by men feigning concern for women's issues.  Some may actually be sincere.  Many are not.

Sexual harassment is real.  I've seen it, we've all seen it.  (My observation is that it happens far less at the crag than in mainstream life but we know that many will be quick to dismiss entire decades of another climber's experience if it doesn't fit their agenda.)   I've also seen plenty of "sensitive" "concerned" guys commit sexual harassment.  Their methods are usually more subtle, which makes it more sinister.  Many of these guys are actually in denial that they actually do these things because they've convinced themselves of their own false purity.

Tom, you are a male.  That means you are a potential perpetrator of sexual assault.   In fact just being human puts you, and all of us, in that category. Your words on an internet forum do not absolve your actions at the crag, or in life.  Your "taking sides" with women on an issue does not put you in a club that is immune from scrutiny.

As for your disregard for the numbers, what's the point of publishing several pages of charts and data if we are to just ignore it all anyway?

Mae Rae wrote:

That's the accusation that is being repeated over and over: "Anyone who questions the numbers is indifferent to to problem."

The really troubling aspect of these twisted arguments is that people use them as a platform to claim innocence.  "Hey look at me, I'm showing concern, I'm one of the good guys!"

Everyone knows that some of the worst perpetrators of sexual wrongs are guys claiming to be sensitive and concerned.  It is utterly laughable that these threads and conversations are dominated by men feigning concern for women's issues.  Some may actually be sincere.  Many are not.

Sexual harassment is real.  I've seen it, we've all seen it.  (My observation is that it happens far less at the crag than in mainstream life but we know that many will be quick to dismiss entire decades of another climber's experience if it doesn't fit their agenda.)   I've also seen plenty of "sensitive" "concerned" guys commit sexual harassment.  Their methods are usually more subtle, which makes it more sinister.  Many of these guys are actually in denial that they actually do these things because they've convinced themselves of their own false purity.

Tom, you are a male.  That means you are a potential perpetrator of sexual assault.   In fact just being human puts you, and all of us, in that category. Your words on an internet forum do not absolve your actions at the crag, or in life.  Your "taking sides" with women on an issue does not put you in a club that is immune from scrutiny.

As for your disregard for the numbers, what's the point of publishing several pages of charts and data if we are to just ignore it all anyway?

First off I am not asking for your approval or disapproval. I am not asking to be considered some type of great guy for defending women, my experience is that they can defend themselves on the internet and in most situations in life. I simply have a responsibility to my fellow humans to stand up against wrong. Having said that, SASH is primarily a problem caused by men and the numbers point that out. Since it is a male problem it matters that men stand up to other men on this issue and not be silent or let it get downplayed. I don't mean to downplay the numbers in the report only to accept them and do my part to lesson them. I don't limit my actions to this forum I call it out if I see it. With that said, I am heading out to climb now. Its a beautiful day here in Central Oregon and Smith is calling.

Mae Rae, the make author didn't write these definitions either. The federal government did.

All? I read the thing, charts and graphs and all.

Self reported, okay? Fine. But? Males reported a higher rate of being flashed. Males reported an equal amount of rapes.

Hm. Most of the respondents include gyms in their mix, and the average years of climbing is ten.

The questions were phrased as "have you ever"...

People? How many adult​ males do you know who have been raped, or even heard of from afar? Yes, it happens, but it is rare. How many guys you know or have heard of with abuse in their background? Ah. I know two, that I know of. Changes the picture, doesn't it. The most vulnerable among us. 

Maybe climbing is simply just like everywhere else in life? I literally trust my partners with my life. Every one who parks their car in the lot? Shit no.

Best, Helen

David Van Parys wrote:

 fedora's, We try to coordinate on male only web sites but its hard to control. 

You know what's not hard to control?  Not using apostrophes in plurals.

Is catcalling actually a thing at the crags or in the gyms? Not only have I never seen it, ever, in 35 years of climbing; I know for a fact if it did happen no one in this community would tolerate it.  These are the crags, not downtown Philadelphia. 

This is the comment I attempted to post on the actual REI Journal article regarding this survey. My comment has been awaiting moderation for something like four days.

These types of surveys are more than just junk, they are pernicious. If you cannot do something well, just do it poorly and collect your virtue signaling award? That is no way to solve real problems.

We all know that more men are interested in climbing than women, and you want to encourage more women to climb. How does conflating rape with catcalling help? As a female considering joining the sport, am I likely to get raped, catcalled, or complimented on my yoga pants? Those have very different rates of incidence and would affect any woman's decision tree. A constructive survey would make the differentiation between events in a manner that provided context and relativism (as opposed to expanding the victim pool and sensationalizing the headline). We already know that rates of violent crime are less on public lands than in urban areas. Do climbing dominated areas fall in line with these already known statistics? More or less? is your attacker known to you? If you do not bring your abusive husband/boyfriend to the crag with you, the incidence of sexual assault plummets to XYZ%. Is sexual harassment more or less likely to happen in gyms or on public lands? Was the harassment in conjunction with an employee/employer or employee/employee relationship (there are established channels for redress)? Compared to other sports, a motivated female might become involved in, do rates of harassment or assault compare favorably or unfavorably?

You should not have accepted this. You should have demanded better work, that can provide better understanding, and an actionable path towards solutions.

Tom Hickmann wrote:

[...] Having said that, SASH is primarily a problem caused by men and the numbers point that out. Since it is a male problem it matters that men stand up to other men on this issue and not be silent or let it get downplayed. [...]

No, the numbers do not point that out.  The study makes no claim about the gender of the perpetrators.  Women do harass other women, etc. No, I'm not going to make the claim that it's actually women doing all the bad stuff.  But the study doesn't give us data either way.  

The numbers show that women are often victims.  And it's likely in most cases that men are the most frequent perpetrators when women are victims.  

What the numbers in the study also show is that a very significant percentage of men are victims  The bar graphs on page 8 show that in the less serious categories men have reported rates of 30% or more.  In the more serious/criminal categories, men report at about the same rate as women.

So your "men need to behave themselves" and the implied "women are the only victims here" argument is not supported at all by the study.  Not a single number in the suty supports that position.

Mike Lane wrote: Is catcalling actually a thing at the crags or in the gyms? Not only have I never seen it, ever, in 35 years of climbing; I know for a fact if it did happen no one in this community would tolerate it.  These are the crags, not downtown Philadelphia. 

That statistic and the rape statistic are two that stand out to me as suspect.  I can't even picture what catcalling would look/sound like "in a climbing setting" and yet it has apparently happened to half of all climbers.  I worked in downtown New York city for many years and rarely witnessed anything that could even be labeled catcalling, and yet the study tells us that it has happened to most women and half of men in climbing?  Seriously, somebody post a video because I'm curious what a "climbing catcaller" would even say.

The rape and unwanted sex statistic would be terrifying if true.  3-4% of climbers have been raped while climbing?

If that number is accurate, you are about as likely to be raped when climbing as you are in prison.

Mae Rae wrote:

No, the numbers do not point that out.  The study makes no claim about the gender of the perpetrators.  Women do harass other women, etc. No, I'm not going to make the claim that the it's actually women doing all the bad stuff.  But the study doesn't give us data either way.  

The numbers show that women are often victims.  And it's likely in most cases that men are the most frequent perpetrators when women are victims.  

What the numbers in the study also show is that a very significant percentage of men are victims  The bar graphs on page 8 show that in the less serious categories men have reported rates of 30% or more.  In the more serious/criminal categories, men report at about the same rate as women.

So your "men need to behave themselves" and the implied "women are the only victims here" argument is not supported at all by the study.  Not a single number in the suty supports that position.

The only thing the study shows is that when 5000 people filled out paper they answered some questions a certain way. Doesn't prove that what they filled out is true. It may be they think it was true or it may be they just randomly filled out the paper a certain way. Unless you are physically have cameras recording all the climbing areas and gyms and can really see how many are happening it is all just smoke.

They say like 15% of women have been raped so if climbers are only 3% I guess we are really doing really good.

I guess I am just a little bias on some of these studies because I personally was friends with a girl growing up who got wasted at a party than had sex with a guy and later said she was raped (never tried to charge him or anything) and also have a friend that had sex with a girl and than her dad found out and made her go with him to pressed charges against him saying she was raped (she was like 14 at the time) etc but it never went anywhere. So I am not sure if either one of them were to take these studies would they say they were raped even though they really had sex by their own choice.

Mae Rae wrote:

That statistic and the rape statistic are two that stand out to me as suspect.  I can't even picture what catcalling would look/sound like "in a climbing setting" and yet it has apparently happened to half of all climbers.  I worked in downtown New York city for many years and rarely witnessed anything that could even be labeled catcalling, and yet the study tells us that it has happened to most women and half of men in climbing?  Seriously, somebody post a video because I'm curious what a "climbing catcaller" would even say.

The rape and unwanted sex statistic would be terrifying if true.  3-4% of climbers have been raped while climbing?

If that number is accurate, you are about as likely to be raped when climbing as you are in prison.

I've been in construction for 40 years and barely even seen it then. 

One thing I am hyper-aware of is this current societal paradigm of constant narrative-setting by people with agendas. It is an entire industry, a symptom of how vapid and barren our culture has become.
This part of the catcalling just screams douchebaggery to me. It relegated the 'study' to just more narrative-building horseshit to me.
I don't doubt at all that unwarranted sexual advances are rampant in this sport. Most people in it now are young. Most are athletic and have the physiques to show for it. There are tight clothes and sweat. Then later there is beer and wine and campfires. Of course people are going to have epic failures in judgement. But even then I highly doubt it is anywhere near an epidemic. The vast majority of women I see in this sport are emancipated bad-asses who won't take that kind of shit.

Briggs Lazalde wrote:

Always your heart. Never your fall. [Heart emoji]

P.s. mae: now I'm no astrophysicist but I'm pretty sure numbers don't lie and it doesn't seem many agree with you. You may want to step back, look at the bigger picture and consider gaining new perspective. One love ya'

Can't wait to see the video montage of climbing catcalls you post up.

It is only now that I notice there is an Appendix B:

Survey Limitations
All research is imperfect, and as researchers, we must point out the
limitations of our work. The primary limitations of this survey are
described below:
- Using a non-probability sample means results
cannot be fully generalized to the broader
climbing population. This method can,
however, still deeply inform readers about
the state and nature of SHSA in the climbing
communities.
...

About sums up the study for me.

On another topic:

I like the skeptism expressed in this thread.