All I'm asking is that you admit that many experienced climbers clove in to the masterpoint only, and that doing so doesn't make you a gumby idiot. You are more than welcome to say you don't prefer it, you think that everyone should clove into 2 points, etc. That's all totally reasonable. Just admit that some other guys who aren't idiots (Karsten Delap, Mark Smiley, Marc Chauvin, etc.) don't do it the same way as you do, and that you agree to disagree with them.
If you took this tact and tone with all of your posts, I wouldn't disagree with you. This is certainly reasonable extra-safe advice, and it's fine if you want to do a one size fits all approach for beginners. But the reality is that in the past you haven't done this, you've made broad generalizations, and when challenged you resort to insulting whomever disagrees with you (often me):
All I'm asking is that you admit that many experienced climbers clove in to the masterpoint only, and that doing so doesn't make you a gumby idiot. You are more than welcome to say you don't prefer it, you think that everyone should clove into 2 points, etc. That's all totally reasonable. Just admit that some other guys who aren't idiots (Karsten Delap, Mark Smiley, Marc Chauvin, etc.) don't do it the same way as you do, and that you agree to disagree with them.
I'm not going to keep following this thread because I don't want to have another drawn-out argument, so I am just going to leave these photos here so that other folks can see that there is more than one way to skin the cat (so to speak) and encourage you to keep it civil. I wish things didn't need to be so ugly and argumentative, and that we could just discuss anchoring strategies like two grown men around a campfire, but that ship appears to have sailed long ago.
Totally reasonable and civil. I, too, wish Tuttle would stop calling people names when he disagrees with them.
Kyle Tarry wrote: All I'm asking is that you admit that many experienced climbers clove in to the masterpoint only, and that doing so doesn't make you a gumby idiot. You are more than welcome to say you don't prefer it, you think that everyone should clove into 2 points, etc. That's all totally reasonable. Just admit that some other guys who aren't idiots (Karsten Delap, Mark Smiley, Marc Chauvin, etc.) don't do it the same way as you do, and that you agree to disagree with them.
"There are two most common general kinds of rigging accidents in climbing. Beginner accidents of ignorance/omission (ie not being clipped in properly) and experienced climber's accidents of complacency (doing things that are just "good enough, never had a problem, no need for more" or not taking the time to double check systems).
I'm gonna leave this here, Kyle, and see if you can make sense of this as it pertains to your images of "experienced climbers" and their practice.
Look at what Rich said too...In perfectly capable hands LOTS of things are fine..... but, there is a line between complacency/laziness and knowledge/experience that gets crossed by every experienced climber and nearly gets them killed or dead. All of us with 40 years experience have the stories and close calls and the dead friends that it happened to...That is a lesson (if you keep climbing long enough) you will eventually learn and I hope no one comes to grief.
I can point to countless people (and some of them my current partners) that do less than ideal things because of complacency that would make you shit your pants. They have earned the right to do it their way (but I stealth clip them in when they are just standing around on tiny ledges a 1000' off the deck).
But some published photo of minimalism should never inform your own practice. Use your own judgment, no more. If you can't tell the difference between what someone does for convenience and what you should be doing given the ease of backing up something you are a long way from making the same judgments yourself.
So, I will never post any recommended technique that is less than redundant that can be easily backed up as "good enough" because I know of people that are dead for just that reason and newbies will screw it up. Right here on this forum people say the sling arrangement that Mikey Schaefer used was redundant and safe and good enough ("effectively 2 slings") but he would be dead if he listened to them...you should think about things like that before you post for the inexperienced lurkers. I do.
People post and take pictures of all kinds of anchors because they aren't experienced enough to know of the time it went south, like that picture of Mark Smiley's who (as nice as he seems to be) doesn't apparently know the proper way to sling a horn (or chose not to from complacency). Any force to his right or upwards and he could be belaying off one cam. Not an ideal model to follow.
Hint: You don't sling a horn by just draping a sling over it, you use a hitch that snugs up so there is more directional stability or otherwise place another piece to stabilize the sling so it can't come off the rock feature.
Keep in mind that when I dispense advice, fwiw, I dispense it for a lurking beginner audience and make it a one size all approach. A method that will keep newbies safe and also defeat complacency. Ergo, always connected twice to the anchor is sound policy, imo.
There are two most common general kinds of rigging accidents in climbing. Beginner accidents of ignorance/omission (ie not being clipped in properly) and experienced climber's accidents of complacency (doing things that are just "good enough, never had a problem" or not taking the time to double check systems).
Clipping in twice to separate points, an example of simple and easily done redundancy, is what prevents both from occurring.
One thing I will say in support of this is a freaky (but thankfully uneventful) thing that happened to me the other day:
I was climbing in Boulder Canyon and using one of the Tyrols to cross the stream. I had a nylon sling girth hitched to my tie-in loops, which I unclipped from my harness and clipped to the tyrol lines to do the traverse. I leaned back to weight the line and start the traverse...and watched my tether slip straight through my hard points and off of my harness. Thankfully, I was on a large rock and was able to catch myself. Had I done this at an anchor, I would be dead. I still have no idea how the sling was able to escape the girth hitch; the sewn loop was perfectly intact and sling appeared undamaged. I had been using it to clean sport anchors all day. It’s possible that having a pack on shifted things around and, being that it was late in the day, I may have done something royally stupid like pull the sling through from the crossed end. Either way, I don’t think I will be attaching myself to an anchor with a single sling like that again and am thankful this mistake happened in a relatively low consequence situation.
One thing I will say in support of this is a freaky (but thankfully uneventful) thing that happened to me the other day:
I was climbing in Boulder Canyon and using one of the Tyrols to cross the stream. I had a nylon sling girth hitched to my tie-in loops, which I unclipped from my harness and clipped to the tyrol lines to do the traverse. I leaned back to weight the line and start the traverse...and watched my tether slip straight through my hard points and off of my harness. Thankfully, I was on a large rock and was able to catch myself. Had I done this at an anchor, I would be dead. I still have no idea how the sling was able to escape the girth hitch; the sewn loop was perfectly intact and sling appeared undamaged. I had been using it to clean sport anchors all day. It’s possible that having a pack on shifted things around and, being that it was late in the day, I may have done something royally stupid like pull the sling through from the crossed end. Either way, I don’t think I will be attaching myself to an anchor with a single sling like that again and am thankful this mistake happened in a relatively low consequence situation.
What happens, Ted, is a natural evolution from being ignorant, to super safe, to complacent and then to not checking/being redundant and being lazy too. We have all done it and I still fight it in myself and other experienced climbers.
I am in the "old and know I don't get another chance to screw up and survive" phase.
Any single thing can be screwed up, no matter how experienced the climber. One moment's inattention or assumption is all it takes.
When you adhere to the "always redundant when easily done" credo you have to screw two things up. Much harder to do.
Many around here have made it to through the "dangerous beginner phase" and are entering the "dangerous but experienced" phase (one of the most dangerous phases in climbing is about 10 years in, due to complacency or extra risk taking "it hasn't happened to me yet...." sort of false feedback).
It takes a close call to wake people up again, not everyone survives it. Glad you did .
Ted, I can think of a couple ways that could happen. Neither seem likely, but maybe one is feasible. It’s bacically the one you mentioned.
You finish climbing, and remove all the gear from your harness. You start to remove the tether. You have it halfway pulled, carabiner removed, when you realize that you need it for the Tyrol. You reclip the carabiner to the sling, but clip the wrong loop. You pull it through, and the bar tack jams at the belay loop and the “girth hitch” comes tight. But it’s not hitched.
Certainly a possibility. Weird stuff happens when you’re tired at the end of the day, which is why so many accidents occur then. I think Tut has a point about having more things to screw up, although cloves are a bit different, since when I screw up a clove I usually end up with a munter. I think the biggest thing that has kept me alive thus far is always weighting a new system before committing to it and unweighting the old before disconnecting it.
I know I'm an outlier here but I long ago ditched the cordalette and massive slings for a more purpose built solution that works really well. The Belay Sling. These are much more common in Europe but I keep trying to spread the "word" on them here. Basically a 120cm sling with a built in belay loop / master point. Stores around the shoulder just like a sling (albeit slightly more bulky) and far more versatile as well as being stronger since you're not knotting a master point. I use the Tech Web version (Tech Web slings are amazing on their own as John notes) which is quite compact. Also will serve as a 120cm sling if needed. Might not have the "reach" of a true cordalette but I almost always will have an extra sling with me at the belay to extend that piece. I really like the belay loop as it makes getting the master point elevated easier than most other options. Best to just watch the Edelrid Video as it explains it far better than words can.
rgold
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Aug 16, 2018
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Poughkeepsie, NY
· Joined Feb 2008
· Points: 526
rgold wrote: I use a dyneema cordelette for block leading,"guiding," and when climbing in a party of 3 with two followers climbing simultaneously. Obviously, the anchor environment has to be ihspected for sharp edges and a rope-only anchor substituted if such things are present (or else move the anchor). For swinging leads on multipitch, the rope-only anchor is better in every regard except that it uses up some rope length.
I would never use a thin dyneema sling to anchor a fixed rope.
A drawback of the thin sling is difficulty untying loaded knots. Putting a carabiner (with a notchless gate) through the power point knot helps.
I forgot to mention that I also use a cordelette in ordinary climbing (party of two, swinging leads) when I want to be situated a long way from the belay anchor---this is a rather common occurrence when there are big ledges and the gear is on the back wall. For this reason, I often carry a thin cordelette, which mostly goes unused, but is occasionally pressed into service for remote anchors.
I typically clip the power point, walk out to the lip, and then clove the rope back to myself for the tie-in. When I do this, I am relying on the power point with no redundant backup.
David K
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Aug 17, 2018
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The Road, Sometimes Chattan…
· Joined Jan 2017
· Points: 434
rgold wrote:
I forgot to mention that I also use a cordelette in ordinary climbing (party of two, swinging leads) when I want to be situated a long way from the belay anchor---this is a rather common occurrence when there are big ledges and the gear is on the back wall. For this reason, I often carry a thin cordelette, which mostly goes unused, but is occasionally pressed into service for remote anchors.
I typically clip the power point, walk out to the lip, and then clove the rope back to myself for the tie-in. When I do this, I am relying on the power point with no redundant backup.
If I'm remembering correctly, you climb with halves? It seems like it would be easy to clip the ropes separately to get redundancy (not that I think it matters much with strong dynamic rope).
I sometimes do something similar: I'll build the anchor with cordelette, pull out the slack I think I'll need, and then clove to the master point. The tradeoff between my method and yours is that my method leaves less tangles around my harness, but sometimes I get the amount of slack wrong and have to go back to the anchor to readjust my length. I clove the ropes separately to get some easy redundancy when I'm climbing with halves, but I clove once on an auto-locking carabiner when using a single rope.
David K
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Aug 17, 2018
·
The Road, Sometimes Chattan…
· Joined Jan 2017
· Points: 434
Kyle Tarry wrote:
The problem mostly goes away if you make a habit of weighting your next safety system before removing the previous one. This is often discussed when doing something like cleaning an anchor, but it applies to this scenario too; just sit on your clove before you go off belay and then you know it's not tied wrong.
There is still the concern about spontaneous failure of a tied anchor, of course.
If you've just lead up a pitch, this would cause a lead fall if you did put your next safety system together incorrectly. Often a very serious lead fall for me, since the ends of pitches here tend to be easy climbing where I run it out.
Not saying you're wrong, just that it's a bit situational.
If you've just lead up a pitch, this would cause a lead fall if you did put your next safety system together incorrectly. Often a very serious lead fall for me, since the ends of pitches here tend to be easy climbing where I run it out.
Not saying you're wrong, just that it's a bit situational.
You clip the rope to the anchor and might even have your belayer take slack before you clip your tether and weight it. No whipper if you follow basic climbing procedure.
It sounds like you and John Wilder are additional experienced folks who rely on a single clove to the anchor from time to time and deem it acceptable. Mr. Tuttle has been quick to insult me for suggesting that this was an accepted way of doing it, but he hasn't chimed in since you and John (Wilder) commented, perhaps you guys aren't as easy targets for ad hominem attacks.
In any case, thanks for contributing to what has become a bit of an ugly discussion. I suppose it is the internet, se la vie.
The practice of the more experienced has been entirely covered, Kyle, you just need to read a little more closely and dwell on something you are just not getting?
There is also some part of people "moving on" when one realizes you are unreachable for reasons of inexperience that you don't seem to get either. "Cie la vie".
Think more about the experience of Ted Pinson that he relates in this thread. See if you can grasp the message and inform your own practice.
Maybe Rich and John can share their near-death experiences like him and how it informed their climbing practice and knowledge of human rigging foibles?
What people are trying to share with you is an experience you have never had, and so you completely discount it ever happening to you, but if you stick with climbing (and risk taking in any endeavor) it will.
This is the bread and butter of risk taking, life and death and a story as old as time: Trying to get newbies to grasp it WILL happen to them.
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: The practice of the more experienced has been entirely covered, Kyle, you just need to read a little more closely and dwell on something you are just not getting?
There is also some part of people "moving on" when one realizes you are unreachable for reasons of inexperience that you don't see to get either. "Cie la vie".
Think more about the experience of Ted Pinson that he relates in this thread. See if you can grasp the message and inform your own practice.
Maybe Rich and John can share their near-death experiences like him and how it informed their climbing practice and knowledge of human rigging foibles?
What people are trying to share with you is an experience you have never had, and so you completely discount it ever happening to you, but if you stick with climbing (and risk taking in any endeavor) it will.
This is the bread and butter of risk taking, life and death and a story as old as time: Trying to get newbies to grasp it WILL happen to them.
You defaulted to telling Kyle he's inexperienced because he looks at something differently than you? How shocking.
You forgot to say, "if you had ever climbed anything..."
You defaulted to telling Kyle he's inexperienced because he looks at something differently than you? How shocking.
You forgot to say, "if you had ever climbed anything..."
Just like you, Frank, you also don't have the experience to understand. Its just a plain statement of facts that you guys get hung up on because you don't have enough experience to know what you don't know. It is clear with everything the little harumpster hate club posts lol. Sorry you don't like it being pointed out? Not sorry. You'll thank me when you know.
Look at the post above by J.Wilder. This is someone that has learned from experience that a single Clove has quirks that you must understand to use safely by itself but has never yet been mentioned by any of the other "single clove users" in the thread. Instead we get assumptions that could lead to dangerous practice due to just such omissions or even complacency in those who think they are experienced.
THIS is precisely what I am getting at when I say I do my best to only post "one size fits all" techniques that can be used safely by newbies so there are no forgotten caveats and quirks that must be shared also for the technique to be safe and that they may not be exposed to until its too late.
Tie in twice. The next time someone gets killed at an anchor like this accident, you can think of this advice:
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